Primals - A Discussion on Ethics & Philosophy (ARR & HW Spoilers)

[Shai]

This has been bothering me for a while. There aren't many in my linkshells and Free Company who are tremendously concerned with Lore & Story so I thought I'd finally take my pondering to the forum. I'll open with my underlying question.

Why do we ally ourselves with Ysayle in an attempt to defeat Thordan VII?

Shiva has been a long-time favorite summon of mine. Since FF4 when it was called FF2. Ysayle was my favorite FF14 NPC (replacing Y'shtola before her and being replaced by Sadu who is by far the most epic female FF character yet!) so I have nothing agianst her. I'm just confused because ... when we finally confront Thordan & his Knights, he claims he wants to use his powers to protect the world and turn on the Ascians and defeat them.

There's no doubt that Ysayle had a change of heart and understood her transformation was misguided. There's no doubt that Thordan is a giant douche and his knights arguably even douchier. I guess what bothers me, though, is that even though Ysayle finally comes on board that primals are bad -- it doesn't really stop her from transforming into one whenever the need arises. She uses it to weaken Ravana and in her final assault against the Empire.

It just feels really hypocritical - of us [the Warrior of Light / Scions] - that we're totally OK with Ysayle/Shiva sucking up aether and transforming to help us fight, but we're not ok with Thordan and the Knights doing it to ... fight the same battles (against the Empire & the Ascians). Ysayle is an ally and a hero, but Thordan is a villain.

Anyone care to explain to me what they perceive as the difference? I am perhaps mis-remembering some of the finer details of the HW plot, and of Thordan's ultimate motivation, but as soon as he admitted that he knew the Ascians were using him, but he planned to betray them and destroy them, I thought "Oh, cool. Let's do that. That sounds good." But the game was like "No, Thordan! You're wrong! I have to kill you now!" I just don't understand why it was ok for Shiva to fight for us, but then we have to put down the crazy Archbishop.

Discuss!

[LittleSparrow]

Unrelated to Shiva and Thordan, I never really got why murder in Eorzia is as common as it can be, and not even frowned upon.

Unless it's someone important.

[Shai]

Unrelated to Shiva and Thordan, I never really got why murder in Eorzia is as common as it can be, and not even frowned upon.

Unless it's someone important.

Yes. This bothers me as well.
You mow through Imperials and corrupt Brass Blades, but then Haurchefant dies and everyone loses their minds.
Don't these people have families and friends waiting for them at home?
It's ok to mercilessly slaughter them because they made bad life choices?

[LittleSparrow]

Yes. This bothers me as well.
You mow through Imperials and corrupt Brass Blades, but then Haurchefant dies and everyone loses their minds.
Don't these people have families and friends waiting for them at home?
It's ok to mercilessly slaughter them because they made bad life choices?

Mind you, a lot of Garlean soldiers were forced in service. They don't even believe in the cause. They were ripped from their homes to serve as soldiers, yet it's perfectly okay to just take their lives.

[WhiteArchmage]

You mow through Imperials and corrupt Brass Blades, but then Haurchefant dies and everyone loses their minds.
Don't these people have families and friends waiting for them at home?
It's ok to mercilessly slaughter them because they made bad life choices?

Short answer: The Imperials and Corrupt Brass Blades were trying to kill us, and are on opposite sides of war, were casualties are expected. Haurchefant had been our ally since we first set foot in Coerthas and we personally knew him and his family and had befriended them, plus he died trying to protect us. Wasn't this sort of debated in the "WoL: Mass Murderer" thread?

[Shai]

Short answer: The Imperials and Corrupt Brass Blades were trying to kill us, and are on opposite sides of war, were casualties are expected. Haurchefant had been our ally since we first set foot in Coerthas and we personally knew him and his family and had befriended them, plus he died trying to protect us. Wasn't this sort of debated in the "WoL: Mass Murderer" thread?

Probably? I never read that thread and I didn't bring up murder in this one.
I was only answering Sparrow, and agreeing there is a clear double standard there, too.

The problem with the self-defense argument is that not only are we never on trial for our actions
(barring the silly mock trials in Ishgard that were fabricated to remove Scion interference)
but no one ever acknowledges any of these actions in any remorseful way.

They just happen as if it's perfectly fine and dandy to kill a dozen men defending their beliefs.
Yes, war is war and people die -- but people come back from wars broken.
I don't really need a PTSD sub-plot to make it feel realistic, but...

Some small amount of dialogue saying we feel sorry a thousand innocent imperial colonial conscripts have to die so Ala Mhigo can be free would go a long way in portraying us as characters who actually value life and liberty.

[Delily]

Yes. This bothers me as well.
You mow through Imperials and corrupt Brass Blades, but then Haurchefant dies and everyone loses their minds.
Don't these people have families and friends waiting for them at home?
It's ok to mercilessly slaughter them because they made bad life choices?

Eorzea is at war with the Imperials. If you don't want to kill them, that won't prevent them from affording you the same luxury. Pressed or willingly is irrelevant when they have a sword pointed in your face. The same goes for the corrupted Brass Blades and the Crystal Braves. They were out for blood, and there was no way to reason with them or end the situation peacefully. They knew when they agreed to apprehend us what we were capable of. The reality is that sometimes the only way to stop people is to kill them.

[Draginhikari]

Unrelated to Shiva and Thordan, I never really got why murder in Eorzia is as common as it can be, and not even frowned upon.

Unless it's someone important.

One of the major characteristics of a crap-sack world is generally the incompetence of states or governments to deal with threats or issues that occur around them. Frankly the City-States do a piss poor job of enforcing anything outside of the borders of their cities as a result life outside of the cities tends to rough, dangerous, and difficult to monitor. Death from monsters and bandit groups is so rampant that unless something major was involved it falls completely under the radar and is just accepted by most people as a part of life. The only time it can make a real impact is when the death directly impacts people. Specifically, those that you know, friends, family, or direct allies. This doesn't just go for the Warrior of Light but most in Eorzea. We are not able to see the impact of every life we take as there is just simply no way to do that. The DRK storyline tires to address this but it's about the best that can be done.

As for the Shiva and Thordan differences, I image it comes down mostly what the Warrior of Light could consider a 'moral gray' area. Though the primals generally need to be eliminated generally because they are a threat to those around them. Ysayle during Heavensward had not used the transformation in the way we've encountered with other primals so it was probably just a matter of letting the issue slide in order to address the problem in front of them. If Ysayle had survived the whole affair it probably would have had to be addressed but she didn't so the problem sort of resolved itself. Thordan however had very clear intentions in mind and frankly in that case the Warrior of Light could consider a primal dictator king to be an immediate cause for concern. Not only was Thordan himself a threat but he was after the Triad as well. If Thordan had been allowed to absorb the aether of those three eikons as well. He may have been impossible to stop even for the Warrior of Light. He as an immediate and direct threat compared to Shiva.

[Mysterysword]

You know, if you want an issue to discuss ethics and morality about, you can just drag up the issue of how we treat our retainers and the various furnishing NPCs. We can force them to work 24/7 for us, standing in one spot all day long, and give them whatever demeaning nickname we decide.

But that's not the worst of it, oh no.

It's the existence of Retainer Fantasia. Which, if we so wish, we can specifically command our retainers to drink.

For our satisfaction, we, the WoL, force other people to change every aspect of their appearance, right down to their clan, race, and gender. Or we'll fire them if they don't comply. Go us!

[LittleSparrow]

I agree though. The whole Shiva and Thordan thing is a major double standard.