Regarding no DRK adjustments in 4.1

[whiskeybravo]

snip

Indeed. I left out the self heals, ultimates, and filler abilities such as TBN, IB, Sheltron, to make it easier to quantify. I was really just interested in seeing what effect 15/120 Shadow Wall would have, I think it's a reasonable conclusion that if anything needs to be changed on DRK it's definitely Shadow Wall. Maybe it doesn't "entirely" bridge the gap for DRK in general, but from a defensive perspective it brings the tanks in closer parity.

I'd only argue that Raw Intuition pretty much needs Awareness to be a usable CD. Less of a concern in raids with only 1 target, but it's a weird cd since it's the only one that potentially increases your damage taken instead of reducing it. And the only time you're able to slot all these is in dungeons anyways. That was kinda my logic behind pairing them up like that, and the fact that DRK would look like shite even more if they were spread out evenly lol

Another problem, what Aana was mentioning about an extra CD - yes I agree. Considering that in raid 1-2 of those abilities are going to go away, DRK needs one more native, all-purpose CD to take. Or perhaps change Dark Mind to be 15% all-damage instead of just magic damage. That wouldn't be a bad 60-sec cd to have

[TouchandFeel]

snip

It's all good, I understood what you were doing and how it was more of a thought exercise out of curiosity.
I was more concerned about the tendency people have for misinterpretation and cognitive bias, and someone taking the info you presented "as is" without thinking about it and the bigger picture.

[WhyAmIHere]

Optimistically: Right now SEnix just wants to make sure that WAR has a kit with all of it's skills that can function properly and be viable in any content (ala changes to gauge / Shake it off). If anything'll come down the pipe for DRK at best it's just some potency buffs. They could be simply taking a wait-and-see approach, or "wait til the next tier of Omega comes out to see how it goes for all the classes."

Personally, I know I'm not the best DRK in the game, nor would I even try to say I'm a good one. It's a class I enjoy playing, but I still have complaints that make me really wonder what, aside from enjoyment / aesthetics, keeps me playing it. Having a key mechanic gated behind level 70 seems like poor design IMO though.

[Tegernako]

Optimistically: Right now SEnix just wants to make sure that WAR has a kit with all of it's skills that can function properly and be viable in any content (ala changes to gauge / Shake it off). If anything'll come down the pipe for DRK at best it's just some potency buffs. They could be simply taking a wait-and-see approach, or "wait til the next tier of Omega comes out to see how it goes for all the classes."

Personally, I know I'm not the best DRK in the game, nor would I even try to say I'm a good one. It's a class I enjoy playing, but I still have complaints that make me really wonder what, aside from enjoyment / aesthetics, keeps me playing it. Having a key mechanic gated behind level 70 seems like poor design IMO though.

Do we know how big their team for job balance or whatever is?

[WhyAmIHere]

Do we know how big their team for job balance or whatever is?

Wish I knew.
Wish they would at least be more willing to say something like "we're trying to get as much feedback as possible to ensure that as many players as possible can be satisfied with the work we produce. We understand how difficult things are now, but we hope when we're ready to reveal what we've been working on you'll be as excited as we are!" or some other hammy PR-one liners.

[Lyth]

If only one tank has an advantage, then it's a niche. If only two tanks have an advantage, then it's a liability on the third.

In HW, each tank had one move for mitigating raid damage. PLD had Divine Veil, DRK had Reprisal, and WAR had Storm's Eye. The main rationale for making Reprisal into a role action is presumably because this is a core function that every tank should be able to do. If we're adding back in unique raid mitigation cooldowns on each tank, it kind of defeats the purpose of this. If PLD and WAR are both bringing extra raid mitigation actions on top of Reprisal, then it raises two questions: 1) If the extra mitigation is necessary, then will this limit DRK's ability to be used in progression, and 2) If the extra raid mitigation is not necessary, does it effectively give PLD and WAR access to an extra role slot because that can swap out Reprisal for something else?

What bothers me about this is the lack of clear direction in the decision-making. Are the devs trying to homogenise core functions, or are they trying to build up niches for each tank? If it's the latter, then as was pointed out in another thread, what is DRK's "niche"? My bigger concern is that, with an increasing number of jobs each expansion, I feel that some jobs are just falling by the wayside because they're not currently being used to sell an expansion or because they're not seeing as much mainstream use. The lack of dev interaction and feedback is frustrating, and a lot of these changes feel like kneejerk reactions.

Personally, I think that the change to Shake it Off would have been a non-issue in isolation, except for the fact that raidwide mitigation skills have suddenly become something that every tank job must have.

Defensive Cooldowns
As far as defensive cooldowns go, I think the one thing that people forget is that not all defensive cooldowns are created equally. TBN is great for cleaves, but it's generally not safe enough for a tankbuster in isolation. This is ameliorated in magic heavy fights like V4S where you can pair TBN with DM every 60 seconds. But imagine if Aero 3 was replaced with a physical tankbuster. You'd very quickly run into problems.

The core of what makes WAR's cooldown set so strong is Vengeance and Holmgang's recasts. So while Raw Intuition is only usable for physical attacks (functionally an additional rampart), Vengeance and Holmgang trivialise most tankbusters on their own.

I don't think that it's a question of total uptime. To assess a cooldown's effectiveness, you need to know the interval between damage spikes. For example, if you and your co-tank have to take alternate Death Sentences, spaced 30 seconds apart each, how many consecutive busters could you mitigate? This is not just a question of recast, but of DR/eHP as well, because you have to meet a certain threshold to survive.

Invulns are particularly important. You can invuln Delta attack with any comp, because both LD and Holmgang work (you could theoretically invuln every Double attack with Holmgang, but the timing is extremely tight). So another question becomes whether you can invuln every instance of an attack between your comp's tanks. This could be an limiting factor for running PLD/DRK, as LD is on a longer recast than Holmgang.

I think the recasts on SW and LD should both be looked at.

DPS:
I know that some people keep downplaying the 200 or so difference in dps between the tanks, but prior to 4.05, when WAR was sitting just above DRK on the other side of that dps gap, the whole community was screaming blue murder. It's not trivial when your job is the one that's affected. I don't see the point in downplaying this; all three tanks should be on equal terms.

One excuse that I see being put up as of late is that DRK's dps is lower because it's "easier" to play. I understand that difficulty is subjective, but what bothers me is that people who make these claims like this:

Drk DPS it has the simplest and least punishable ST rotation of all tanks.

and this

It is more punishing to mess up WAR rotation than DRK.

have, for the most part, either not played DRK to 70 or bothered to even unlock the job in the first place. I think the biggest problem here is that a lot of casual players have bought into Xeno's day three impressions that the job has automagically gone from being really hard to really easy to play overnight, on account for it suddenly being changed to a "single combo" rotation! But it's his job to be sensationalistic.

Let me let you in on a secret. DRK has always used a single combo rotation, even in HW. Anyone who tells you otherwise probably never understood the job in the first place. Adding a second combo finisher to press every three combos doesn't make a job any harder to play. It just makes it more structured. DRK can't afford to have a structured rotation, because you're simultaneously managing two gauges while trying not to cap or bottom out (that's also the reason why Scourge had to go). The theme is resource-management.

It's not that WAR is super unforgiving. The devs have gone out of their way to simplify the job even further from HW. Maim and SE have much longer buff durations, so you don't have to worry about them falling off mid-Berserk. Raw Intuition and Vengeance no longer give stacks, so you don't have to worry of syncing your Berserks with your defensive cooldown usage. The gauge was doubled, so most of your Berserk "rotation" is just spent spamming Fell Cleave.

Jobs with high burst have the advantage. Jobs which are less burst focused generally have higher average combo potencies, so any amount of lost uptime hurts you significantly more. That's why high uptime fights like V2S have the narrowest differences in tank dps. In any other fight, WAR is punished less for lost GCDs (due to lower combo potencies) so long as you don't do something silly like use Berserk when the boss is afk.

Players had mathed out an ideal rotation for WAR during the media tour, prior to release. You can't do that for DRK. Resource generation from BW and BP does not happen in a simple, predictable fashion. Unlike HW, it is extremely easy to lose dps by capping your MP, even for a fraction of a second. Most of your oGCDs are forced doubleweaves because of the way the combo system works. Bloodspiller is functionally your fourth combo action (being not tied down to personal burst windows the way FC/HS spam is), and knowing where to place it to maximise your DA expenditure during raid buffs is pretty important (your placement of C+S is similarly important, because when used before any step except HS may result in one less DA in the window). Do you Bloodspiller now, or hold it to finish your combo before the boss jumps? Delirium is quite unforgiving as well; it is the only tank damage buff with a resource cost, and requires another buff be active or else it's a waste. Not only that, but fail to get 16-23 seconds of full uptime when it's active, and you've just wasted your 2 minute cooldown.

Don't get me wrong, I really like playing the new DRK. It's actually interesting and engaging, and requires you to think on your feet and understand potency trade-offs instead of just memorising a set rotation. The main problem at the moment is that it offers too little reward for the effort required, and there are a lot of people out there who are all too willing to regurgitate whatever groupthink has been forcefed to them about the job without actually playing it and thinking for themselves.

[Aana]

Unfortunately on my phone at so sorry for typos and lack of multiple quotes for context, but a few things.

Veul, path and reprisal aren't really the equivalents that were adjusted. Path, halone, and (old)delerium are each tanks original raid mitigation. Str. Int. All. 3rd hit combos with 20 sec durations. All 3 tanks lost those. All 3 got reprisal. They wanted to delete always on mitigation (mnk lost it too). Nothing wrong with that. They moved all raid support to timed actions with costs. Pld gauge, drk mp, Pld actions+cure activation, (now) war CDS consumed. Drks is the only one that refunds anything and has the shortest CD. Balanced by being ST. It could use some love but the concept of these tradeoffs doesn't sound unreasonable. The numbersecond might need tweaking, but I like that they function differently and each affect game play of the player.

As for "easy" dps. I didn't say I agreed. I said that is the vocalized Dev reasoning. As for dot vs burst class, the burst class is rewarded for playing around the fight. If you can get you windows of burst without missing any by playing around mechanics and letting downtime tick your timers away, of course you win. That's the point. If you can play your burst job to the specific fight well you are rewarded with damage. If you can't or screw it up, you fall flat. Hard. High risk high reward. Compared to dot jobs who have a more consistent output no matter the fight or sotuation. At the higher levels you see that play out and that creates the disparity of a couple 100 dps. Is that fair? Eh kinda ish. Drk is functionally has a higher floor and a lower ceiling. Burst dps jobs have lower floors but higher skill ceilings. In 1 light that is quite equitable. If you are a skilled drk player however it feels limiting because the job holds you back. It's a design choice, but it is still balanced, just not at the highest levels, but it makes drk overturned at lower skill levels. It's more of a design philosophy than a balance problem. When you look at the wide range of player skill level, the jobs are more balanced overall. But when you slice off the top, you always see disparities that aren't present at the bottom. This is true in all things though. Players pushing things to the max will highlight minor differences that are completely unimportant at lower levels of play. And like most games, the conundrum is to balance for the masses or balance for the pros. Drk doesn't make the cut at the highest levels of play but even then by a relatively small margin.

And thus is why meta are stupid and people shouldn't freak about it constantly. Most people could play any tank and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. Most of the complaints are people that don't play at the highest level. If you didn't clear neo in the 1st couple weeks you aren't in the elite where any of the minutia matters. We come in 20 ills higher than the 1st groups and whine that X class is to strong or weak, but the truth is that your personal skill and gear is thedefining characteristic of your success or failure when you aren't on the cutting edge where pushing the limits is a given. Play what you like. As long as the jobs arent horrendously fucked up, it's a delusion in your head that your class is a defining factor. And right now, the jobs are not horrendously fucked up.

And yes i know wars were whiney bitch monsters at SB. I can't undo that, but I can say I didn't agree with them then just like the overdone drk QQ now.

[Chrono_Rising]

Unfortunately on my phone at so sorry for typos and lack of multiple quotes for context, but a few things.

Veul, path and reprisal aren't really the equivalents that were adjusted. Path, halone, and (old)delerium are each tanks original raid mitigation. Str. Int. All. 3rd hit combos with 20 sec durations. All 3 tanks lost those. All 3 got reprisal. They wanted to delete always on mitigation (mnk lost it too). Nothing wrong with that. They moved all raid support to timed actions with costs. Pld gauge, drk mp, Pld actions+cure activation, (now) war CDS consumed. Drks is the only one that refunds anything and has the shortest CD. Balanced by being ST. It could use some love but the concept of these tradeoffs doesn't sound unreasonable. The numbersecond might need tweaking, but I like that they function differently and each affect game play of the player.

As for "easy" dps. I didn't say I agreed. I said that is the vocalized Dev reasoning. As for dot vs burst class, the burst class is rewarded for playing around the fight. If you can get you windows of burst without missing any by playing around mechanics and letting downtime tick your timers away, of course you win. That's the point. If you can play your burst job to the specific fight well you are rewarded with damage. If you can't or screw it up, you fall flat. Hard. High risk high reward. Compared to dot jobs who have a more consistent output no matter the fight or sotuation. At the higher levels you see that play out and that creates the disparity of a couple 100 dps. Is that fair? Eh kinda ish. Drk is functionally has a higher floor and a lower ceiling. Burst dps jobs have lower floors but higher skill ceilings. In 1 light that is quite equitable. If you are a skilled drk player however it feels limiting because the job holds you back. It's a design choice, but it is still balanced, just not at the highest levels, but it makes drk overturned at lower skill levels. It's more of a design philosophy than a balance problem. When you look at the wide range of player skill level, the jobs are more balanced overall. But when you slice off the top, you always see disparities that aren't present at the bottom. This is true in all things though. Players pushing things to the max will highlight minor differences that are completely unimportant at lower levels of play. And like most games, the conundrum is to balance for the masses or balance for the pros. Drk doesn't make the cut at the highest levels of play but even then by a relatively small margin.

And thus is why meta are stupid and people shouldn't freak about it constantly. Most people could play any tank and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. Most of the complaints are people that don't play at the highest level. If you didn't clear neo in the 1st couple weeks you aren't in the elite where any of the minutia matters. We come in 20 ills higher than the 1st groups and whine that X class is to strong or weak, but the truth is that your personal skill and gear is thedefining characteristic of your success or failure when you aren't on the cutting edge where pushing the limits is a given. Play what you like. As long as the jobs arent horrendously fucked up, it's a delusion in your head that your class is a defining factor. And right now, the jobs are not horrendously fucked up.

And yes i know wars were whiney bitch monsters at SB. I can't undo that, but I can say I didn't agree with them then just like the overdone drk QQ now.

In terms of balance, I know alot of my saltiness comes from a few places, so perhaps this helps you understand what you are calling "whining". Here are the things that stand out in my mind:

1) We did not get a new tank or healer job in this expansion specifically becuase the Devs recognized thier own inability to balance the three classes they had. We were told this was a priority for 4.x.

2) The reason for the imbalance in 3.x was a combination of a few factors: PLD did not bring the dps the other two tanks brought, PLD mitigation was not as well equiped to handle the number of magical tankbusters as drk was, however paladin did bring some marginal utility to the party though some of it was not useful because some only delt with physical damage (again 3.x this has all been changed in 4.0).

3) Warrior was hands down the best designed job of 3.x bringing dps, mitigation, and utility making it a must have when picking a raid tank.

4) People have identified these imbalances as early as June when we saw the ability descriptions. When people complained they told us not to worry about it because the numbers weren't final. In the case of dark, the numbers went down further despite people complaining that the numbers were low to begin with (I guess this means we should have understood this as don't worry its worse than you think LOL)

My personal take away from 3.x tank imbalance, the presence of 1 super class means that there was only one tank spot open, and paladin brining less mititgation, utility, and dps compared to dark on a large number of turns doomed paladin. How to fix this? One class should not be lowest in all three areas, esspecially when one class is highest in all three. But in 4.x we are dealing with the same thing, the only difference is the name of the classes have changed. Paladin brings it all, warrior is about to bring alot with a raid wide shield and its dps and personal mitigation are top of the line, and dark knight has lower dps and mitigation (though TBN is more frequent) and less utility (and maybe this is a better way of saying this) no party wide utility (meaning everyone is helped with one button). We may have closed the gap in 4.x with the % of damage being lower, but its still the same issue of having 1 "must pick" and then looking at the other two to see which has the least problems, despite being told tank balance was a priority of 4.0 to the point of not getting a new job.

Its fine and well to think well who cares about meta anyway play what you like. The problem is if you are trying to fill a raid spot and talented groups are only looking for WAR/PLD then the issue is less about personal beliefs and more about what the community as a whole believes, and saddly this is meta meta meta. This is particularly relevant in light of the ultimate tier coming out in a few weeks and the news that it is tuned to ilvl 340, i.e. we will not be 20 ilvls overgeared until 4.2.

Since I think nerfing the other two classes to dark level would cause a community uproar the only thing I can see is to buff drk to pld/war levels.

[MauvaisOeil]

Let me let you in on a secret. DRK has always used a single combo rotation, even in HW

I don't know where this is leading us, but can you expose your point instead of some hyperbolic inner question ?



Edit : And a little addition :

(now) war CDS consumed

How do you consider snapping a CD at the last few seconds as a difficulty higher than managing your MP to have enough ressource while making sure you won't cap Blood the moment your shield will break. I think, at best, it's pretty even. As people math rotations before release, or optimize every single GCD used, consuming a buff when he is no longer relevant and/or about to expire will not be a cost of some sort, except in planification, which is already done for every single job at high levels of play.

I'm still quite curious of why you allways consider TBN as an equivalent of Divine veil or the new Shake it off ? Raid wide mitigation against single target mitigation which happens to be the now main cooldown of self mitigation of DRK as well. While I agree it works like Intervention, meaning it's free mitigation for someone else when you don't need it, Divine veil is not "when you don't need it" and shake it off can also be used "when you won't need it either".

Beside, you're barely comparing a 7 people shield, to an 8 people shield, with a 1 person shield, which means relevant only for specific single target mechanics, most (but not allways) of the time beeing Tank busters.

[Aana]

How do you consider snapping a CD at the last few seconds as a difficulty higher than managing your MP to have enough ressource while making sure you won't cap Blood the moment your shield will break. I think, at best, it's pretty even. As people math rotations before release, or optimize every single GCD used, consuming a buff when he is no longer relevant and/or about to expire will not be a cost of some sort, except in planification, which is already done for every single job at high levels of play.

I'm still quite curious of why you allways consider TBN as an equivalent of Divine veil or the new Shake it off ? Raid wide mitigation against single target mitigation which happens to be the now main cooldown of self mitigation of DRK as well. While I agree it works like Intervention, meaning it's free mitigation for someone else when you don't need it, Divine veil is not "when you don't need it" and shake it off can also be used "when you won't need it either".

Beside, you're barely comparing a 7 people shield, to an 8 people shield, with a 1 person shield, which means relevant only for specific single target mechanics, most (but not allways) of the time beeing Tank busters.

Snapshotting before something falls off could be lulzy easy or extremely tactical/hard. Depends on a lot of factors. Consider these 2 examples

*1: What if the shield lasts 1 min (extreme good). Well, all of a sudden this ability is super lulzy and costs virtually nothing.
"Hey Tank buster! Time to use vengeance+IB like I always do anyway! @1sec left: NOM NOM NOM SUPER SHIELD NOM!". 30 sec later Raid damage happens. WAR SO GEWD! /flex!!

*2: What if the shield lasts 5 sec (extreme bad). Well, all of a sudden this ability is extremely costly, tactical and situational
"Hey tank buster! Time to use Veng+IB like I always do! Oh wait...Raid aoe comes in 20 sec....do I want to save something to NOM NOM for that? Im not taking a buster then....Shit need to reconfigure my entire CD rotation if I want more than a junky 4% shield! Tradeoffs! Sacrifices! WHAT DO!?!?!?!"

The duration alone will HEAVILY impact how big the tradeoffs are. Sure there are some situations where TB happens and then raid aoe after and that's similar to the rare double busters that intervention gets to double dip and be super awesome (a la twinbolt). But what if the raid damage is BEFORE the buster? What if the shield doesn't last very long so you cant do much double dipping the buster for you and the buffs for raid?

Patch notes will tell all. This can easily be a very nich/OT useful ability, or OP as fudge, or something in the middle depending on a number of factors we don't yet know.

As for Why TBN is compared to DV/AOE? The same reason that Adlo and Succor are both very handy. Is succor BETTER than adlo? Sometimes. Is adlo BETTER than succor? Sure. Sometimes. They don't do the same thing. That doesn't mean 1 is bad and the other is good. 10% single target shield (potentially every 15 sec) vs 10% aoe shield every 2 min. Why cant both of those things be good? Adlo and succor are both good. Why cant TBN and Veil also both be good? Why shit on TBN and not shit on Adlo? Both have value but people keep ignoring the value of a frequent ST shield like it is has no value. If that's true delete Adlo. Its not true. It has value, but people keep insisting otherwise because reasons.