Thread: Regarding no DRK adjustments in 4.1

Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

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TLDR: Pretty much that.

SE backed themselves into a corner with Drk. Over time you should refine and enhance job's identity/feel and then create new jobs for new experiences.

Example done right? Holy, protective sturdy Paladin. It was already sturdy. They refined the holy/protective aspects of the theme. Regardless of balance, people LIKE playing paladin as it is. It fulfills the paladin fantasy.

Example done mediocre? SB Warrior. They did ok refining the fluid, 'toe the line' play between control/rage, but they went a little heavy on the 'rage' part but took a giant step back with the clunky gauge implementation (that doesn't mean it wasn't strong or balanced, but the fluid aesthetic was dead). BUT they quickly fixed the aesthetic via minor changes (they only changed numbers. No new combos, no fundamental changes because the core abilities and changes were actually still in line with the original aesthetic and quite well refined tbh).

Example done wrong and then some? Drk. They killed the old feeling of playing drk. SB drk doesn't feel like HW drk at all. Then they let it sit so long that the current playstyle is the 'new normal'. But changing a few potencies wont bring back the 'old' Drk feeling. They cant drop the cost of a random ability and recreated heavensward Drk (a la War). Drk would need a fundamental redesign to recapture that. But a full redesign would have so many unintended consequences it would set back tank balance even more. The best we can do at this point is get the balance right with the playstyle they made Drk into unfortunately.

TLDR: They refined Pld/War aesthetic and are now able to tweak the balance via numbers. Drk they upended the aesthetic in SB. Redesigning an entire job midstream would be complicated with lots of unintended consequences that would just set tank balance further back and anger the 'new' drks because its sat to long in this form. But we can still achieve balance via tweaks.

Originally Posted by Crater

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To translate for those on the internet with a severe linguistic intolerance.

Tank balance changes come out,

WAR sees their buffs and is all ...



While DRK just wishes people knew they existed ...



While somewhat in jest, I will admit it is really starting to grate a bit on me when I see a noticeable section of WARs say "If only we got X buffed/fixed, then we would be perfect and everything would be great!". Then they get that buff and I immediately start to see "Well X is great but ... we really need Y buff too". They then get that and rinse repeat infinitum. I get it, you want your chosen class to be awesome, but seriously ...

Originally Posted by Aana

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I both agree and disagree with your stance on what it would take to "fix" the feel of DRK.
I agree that the exacts of the 3.X version of DRK are gone and that people should try to get past it. However I feel that large steps to getting back to the core of what was enjoyable about DRK could be made with a combination of small changes like tweaking some numbers particularly things like resource costs and recast times, as well as some more medium sized changes ranging from things like adding an additional effect to certain abilities, to a complete rework of certain other abilities (cough ... Sole Survivor ... cough). None of this is any more drastic of a change than what we have seen WAR be the recipient of so far in 4.X and SE managed to churn those out very quickly. So I too am opposed to a "burn it to the ground and build again" stance for fixing DRK, but I feel that fixing DRK both in feel and in balance is not an out of reach goal that couldn't be achieved within the regular patch cycle of the game. Small and medium changes, when intelligently designed and applied, would add up to a much greater whole. First thing that needs to be done though, is that SE needs to admit that there is a problem and then they need to fix it. Second, they need to just decided on exactly what the core concept of DRK is supposed to be and "a middle ground" is not a core concept.

Also, while I myself prefer more measured, well thought out and refined changes that form a synergy that is both subtle and powerful, I also have to agree with Crater in that SE has a distinct pattern of catering more to players throwing tantrums. As such I am fine with people cranking the complaints and asked for changes up well past eleven, if only to create enough of a ruckus to get SE to actually hear and acknowledge the DRK playerbase.

It's true that we have great issue as Drk, our defensive potential is cleary under pld and war.

Here's some suggestions with different version

Shadow wall : the most famous unexplained 3 minute CD...
To match this with the same CD from the War, a suggest :

Reduce damage taken by 35% CD 120sec

Or

Duration increased to 20sec CD 120sec

Cause we don't counter attack with this, we need some counter part.

Dark mind : we're supposed to be magical tank, but since magic can be parried... I suggest to just mitigate physical damage as well. No heavy change their

Dark passenger : I don't even use this skill... Why? Cause this is just impossible to use effectively without an tremendous cost of MP... Even then, the blind effect doesn't have any synergy with blood price.

Reduce mana cost to 1200 MP, change the dark art effect to "reduce damage inflicted by 10% for 5 seconds"

Or

Potency increase to 140/260 DA, mana cost 1800, inflict a DoT at the target, potency 50, 15sec duration

Sole survivor : honestly, this debuff is the most useless in the omega savage raid. We need to kill a monster within 15 sec for 20% Hp and Mp.

New effect : "inflict a debuff who need massive damage to stack on the target, can stack 10 times, 15sec duration". at the end of the timer, the stacks explode and produce a heal for every member of the group. (maximum heal possible to give is 6000)

Or

Create a massive drain effect for every member of the team, healing them for 2% of their max hp, duration 10sec.

Undead : this skill got a great potential, but the punishment for avoiding death is just too high. Don't have an idea on it for now...

Delirium : can restore our mana for 2400 pts, on a 120 sec CD. The CD is really heavy for just this effect and the duration increase on blood skill, don't really have an idea here

Blood weapon : quit a great burst CD, the attack speed it give is really good and with the Mp regeneration too, but unable to do it under grit, so I got an idea that the bonus of this skill have different effect on the way you use it

New effect : Under grit : ignore grit penalty for 15 sec
Without grit : the basics skill as always.

Blood price :

Added effect : reduce damage taken proportionaly to your actual MP (between 5 to 20% max), the more you got Mp the more effective it is.

Originally Posted by Phileas

TBN is awful to use. Lag is terrible with TBN and can shave 2 of the 5 seconds of duration. So you have to time it pretty freakin well even if you want it to be remotely useful.

Its not lag. it takes effect after the animation completes. Same as EVERY skill in the game. Ever used HG/Hallowed/LD/Bene and still died even though the action went off and the CD has started? The animation needs to be done before the effect happens. You don't get 20% buff till after the 3rd 'swing' in Eye. If you use a jump immediately after disembowel, you don't get the piercing bonus because the effect isnt on the boss yet. IB/any defensive CD doesn't actually work until the animation finishes.

You don't 'lose' 2 seconds of time. You get the full 5 sec, its just delayed by the animation, just like everything in this game. TBN isn't any more gimped than every other action in the game when it comes to latency.

Originally Posted by Phileas

Also it does a 10% HP shield on a SINGLE party member. TBN also costs 2400 MP. The 15 second CD implies you can use it for DPS but with Dark Arts/Souleater spam competing for your MP resource a some people argue that using TBN for DPS is a DPS loss. Even on tankbusters TBN is not very effective unless paired with rampart/shadow wall/awareness...

Its not comparable to Shake it off, Passage of Arms...These abilities can flat out reduce party damage and costs no resource and they are on relatively short cooldowns..

Why does having a 15 sec CD 'imply' you can use it for DPS? If I have a stoneskin effect that can happen every 15 sec, my 1st thought is not "WOW imagine how much DPS ill do with a defensive shield every 15 sec." Its designed to be DPS neutral/nearly unperceivable gains/losses. Not sure why everyone thinks every button is supposed to be a spam on CD DPS increase. Any more than you should spam onslaught on CD. They are tools. Being DPS neutral means you have the freedom to use them freely as needed, not on CD. Sure you can minmax the situation to get a smidge of DPS out of abilities like this, but overall, just use it when the effect would be useful, not on CD.

Not every action needs to be a DPS increase you spam on CD. DPS neutral skills like onslaught, TBN, Sams Jump back>Jump in combo, etc etc are all just tools. They are all virtually DPS neutral which just lets you use them when you need to for the actual effect. You don't just spam every button the moment it comes up. These are tactical skills. Not part of your standard dps rotation any more than shirk or shake it off. Not every skill needs to INCREASE damage.

(this is not to say drk doesn't need a little boost in the dps department, but TBN is a tool skill. If drks dps is also centered around using it on CD it will stop being used as a defensive skill just like tank stance. It would just be used on CD regardless of intelligent mitigation use because MAH DEEPZ. Please don't do that to TBN.)