Black Mage

[Remedi]

I don't get how freeze,blizzard 2 sleep and scathe are still there...They are useful for low level dungeons but sleep could have been added to cross role or freeze and blizzard 2 could have had a upgrade or some kind of change.

Llugen has a good proposal on how to make Freeze work as for the other 2, B2 can be considered power crept out by freeze if Llugen Idea comes to fruition while scathe imho should be heavily changed

[HaroldSaxon]

With Thunder and Firestarter, I've suggested two ways of handling getting the proc buff.

For Thundercloud, I suggested Aether Static, which would generate from every tic of your Thunder/Thunder II/Thunder III/Thunder IV on targets. It'd be a gauge that filled to 100, and when it reaches 100, you get Thundercloud. Thunder III ticks would give 15 points whilst Thunder IV would give 7.

Firestarter would be built up using Astral Hearts, obtained by using Fire IV. Each Fire IV affected by Umbral Hearts would give a single Astral Heart, and having at least one will grant Black Mage a confirmed Firestarter at the cost of all Astral Hearts. However, each Astral Heart would also buff Fire's base potency by 20 per Heart, granting them 240 potency on a full Fire IV rotation.

That wouldn't solve the issues with Thundercloud. The firestarter changes would mean we lose out of 2 Fire IV's/Fire I's, would override Sharpcasts usage and would also mean you would do a F1/F1/F4/F4/F4/F4 rotation which would lead to other problems. I just think the Umbral hearts need a complete rework along with mana changes to maintain the current standard 3 x F4/F1/3 x F4 rotation/

[EllieShadeflare]

That wouldn't solve the issues with Thundercloud. The firestarter changes would mean we lose out of 2 Fire IV's/Fire I's, would override Sharpcasts usage and would also mean you would do a F1/F1/F4/F4/F4/F4 rotation which would lead to other problems. I just think the Umbral hearts need a complete rework along with mana changes to maintain the current standard 3 x F4/F1/3 x F4 rotation/

Thundercloud would be solved as it won't be unpredictable and won't be forced to compromise the rotation or Astral Fire and Umbral Ice.

As for the Firestarter change, you've utterly misunderstood what I've suggested.

My proposed change would maintain the Fire IV x3 rotation, but also guarantee that Fire procs Firestarter, while also boosting Fire. Meanwhile, the "all Astral Hearts will be consumed by Fire" effect to guarantee Firestarter would also allow for the rotation to continue if you're forced to move for some reason.

Besides the point, Fire IV would only generate Astral Hearts while affected by Umbral Hearts, essentially replacing the Umbral Heart they consume with an Astral Heart. This would make the 8x Fire IV starter easier, and also make Fire I seem less of a penalty for casting in the rotation.

Sharpcast has always been a weird ability that... was a bandage to our gambling addiction rather than a solution and part of the problem WITH Black Mage is the gamble regarding Firestarter and Thundercloud, which are objectively gambles. Thundercloud especially is a gamble, considering it's one of our heavy hitters in our rotation, below only Fire IV in terms of raw damage without even counting the damage over time that comes with it.

[Remedi]

I did propose to change sharpcast to an ability that buffs the dmg on our next spellcast, seems ppl did not agree on that much though we could use that

[HaroldSaxon]

Thundercloud would be solved as it won't be unpredictable and won't be forced to compromise the rotation or Astral Fire and Umbral Ice.

As for the Firestarter change, you've utterly misunderstood what I've suggested.

My proposed change would maintain the Fire IV x3 rotation, but also guarantee that Fire procs Firestarter, while also boosting Fire. Meanwhile, the "all Astral Hearts will be consumed by Fire" effect to guarantee Firestarter would also allow for the rotation to continue if you're forced to move for some reason.

Besides the point, Fire IV would only generate Astral Hearts while affected by Umbral Hearts, essentially replacing the Umbral Heart they consume with an Astral Heart. This would make the 8x Fire IV starter easier, and also make Fire I seem less of a penalty for casting in the rotation.

Sharpcast has always been a weird ability that... was a bandage to our gambling addiction rather than a solution and part of the problem WITH Black Mage is the gamble regarding Firestarter and Thundercloud, which are objectively gambles. Thundercloud especially is a gamble, considering it's one of our heavy hitters in our rotation, below only Fire IV in terms of raw damage without even counting the damage over time that comes with it.

The problem with Thundercloud isn't his unpredictability and it will still compromise the rotation of Astral Fire and Umbral Ice because it doesn't extend the timer nor does it always do enough damage to be worth using over a F4. The issue is being able to use the procs and the chances of the proc getting overwritten. It is the same issue as 3.0 BLM and Thundercloud.

Your proposed change would not maintain the Fire IV rotation as we wouldn't have enough mana. Firestarter does not need any changes, and the skill floor of the class is not the issue here. Its the ceiling.

[EllieShadeflare]

The problem with Thundercloud isn't his unpredictability and it will still compromise the rotation of Astral Fire and Umbral Ice because it doesn't extend the timer nor does it always do enough damage to be worth using over a F4. The issue is being able to use the procs and the chances of the proc getting overwritten. It is the same issue as 3.0 BLM and Thundercloud.

Unpredictability is just one problem with Thundercloud, but the other problems, like the proc being overwritten do exist as well. My proposal would end that right then and there, replacing randomness with a Thundercloud that you will be able to plan around and use when you're not in the middle of the Fire IV rotation. AKA: the part of the rotation that has the biggest issues when Thundercloud is involved.

Your proposed change would not maintain the Fire IV rotation as we wouldn't have enough mana. Firestarter does not need any changes, and the skill floor of the class is not the issue here. Its the ceiling.

'
Okay, how wouldn't we have enough mana for the Astral Hearts? As far as my proposal is concerned, you'd need 3 Umbral Hearts'd Fire IVs to get Firestarter. That's basically no different from the Fire IV rotation than we have now, with Fire IV x3, Fire, Fire IV x3. Unless you're assuming that you would get Astral Hearts from Fire 1, the rotation would stay the same but access to Firestarter and the potency to Fire 1 would rise.

Astral Hearts would only replace the Umbral Heart on the Fire IV that it is casted with. That is to say, if you do the normal Fire IV rotation with 3 Umbral Hearts, you will get to Fire 1 with 3 Astral Hearts, with the MP reductions having been applied.

Or, for simplicity's sake, whenever we'd cast a Fire IV affected by Umbral Hearts under my proposal, we'd get the MP reduction, and the Umbral Heart turns red/orange, turning it into an Astral Heart. When you have at least 1 Astral Heart, your next Fire 1 cast will consume all Astral Hearts, add 20 potency to its base per Heart consumed (1 Heart turning Fire to 200 potency, 2 Hearts giving it 220 potency, and 3 Hearts giving it 240 potency), and proc Firestarter.

Also, Black Mage's skill ceiling has always been pretty "low" and linked to its floor until movement is a problem, that is assuming this definition is right:

Skill floor usually refers to the minimum skill required to play X decently.

Skill ceiling refers to the skill required to play X to it's maximum potential.

[HaroldSaxon]

Unpredictability is just one problem with Thundercloud, but the other problems, like the proc being overwritten do exist as well. My proposal would end that right then and there, replacing randomness with a Thundercloud that you will be able to plan around and use when you're not in the middle of the Fire IV rotation. AKA: the part of the rotation that has the biggest issues when Thundercloud is involved.

It isn't a problem at all.

Okay, how wouldn't we have enough mana for the Astral Hearts? As far as my proposal is concerned, you'd need 3 Umbral Hearts'd Fire IVs to get Firestarter. That's basically no different from the Fire IV rotation than we have now, with Fire IV x3, Fire, Fire IV x3. Unless you're assuming that you would get Astral Hearts from Fire 1, the rotation would stay the same but access to Firestarter and the potency to Fire 1 would rise.

Astral Hearts would only replace the Umbral Heart on the Fire IV that it is casted with. That is to say, if you do the normal Fire IV rotation with 3 Umbral Hearts, you will get to Fire 1 with 3 Astral Hearts, with the MP reductions having been applied.

Or, for simplicity's sake, whenever we'd cast a Fire IV affected by Umbral Hearts under my proposal, we'd get the MP reduction, and the Umbral Heart turns red/orange, turning it into an Astral Heart. When you have at least 1 Astral Heart, your next Fire 1 cast will consume all Astral Hearts, add 20 potency to its base per Heart consumed, and proc Firestarter.

So you aren't suggesting a replacement to Umbral Hearts? Firestarter doesn't need changing and this absolutely is not the issue with BLM currently. I don't think you actually understand the issues with the class in Savage and Ultimate level gameplay.

I'm not against a mechanic like Astral Hearts, but the mechanic you describe literally does nothing to address the problems of the class.

[EllieShadeflare]

It isn't a problem at all.

Considering that BLM's DPS can massively fluctuate by the will of the RNG? It's pretty much always an issue as it throws potency out of the player's hands in into the hands of sheer luck. Not to mention, by removing that randomness and its urgency, it removes the potential of having to choose Thunder over a Fire IV, which is something that you've admitted ruins a rotation.

So you aren't suggesting a replacement to Umbral Hearts? Firestarter doesn't need changing and this absolutely is not the issue with BLM currently. I don't think you actually understand the issues with the class in Savage and Ultimate level gameplay.

I'm not against a mechanic like Astral Hearts, but the mechanic you describe literally does nothing to address the problems of the class.

I'm IN Savage, and my static has been struggling against Halicarnassus quite a bit. Part of it has to do with the boss's love of screwing with movement and timing to the point that it's honestly rather difficult to keep the rotation up for long. And Black Mage's issues have a lot to do with underwhelming damage and damage fluctuation. Sometimes, it'll underperform, sometimes it'll be utterly worthless with damage and sometimes it'll be at the right spot.

Thundercloud being almost entirely at the will of RNG is a huge issue, and needs to be addressed. Firestarter, one of our most vital tools to extending our Astral Fire rotation, needs to be addressed. Sharpcast did nothing to address them, beyond a quick bandaid. There are other issues needing to be addressed but these are the issues that I've tried to address. Perhaps Thundercloud's potency should also be increased as a result of the aether static proposal removing the "random" Thunderclouds or the Astral Hearts should boost Fire's potency more than just 20 per heart, but I don't know.

[Remedi]

No offense but, blackcat has shown you a good way of countering halicarnassus, frankly she's not such a big deal even for BLM you can literally time every movement CD to any movement segment of her rotation

[EllieShadeflare]

Even so, she still hampers with my rotation far more than I'd like, so either Blackcat is a lot better than she says she is (don't doubt it) or whatever.

While hashing the idea out in my static discord, another friend who happens to play Black Mage a bit suggested the following change, so Firestarter AS IS would remain, but it would improve the MP economy of Black Mage.

Trait: Astral Conversion: Casting a Fire Spell under the effect of an Umbral Heart converts the Umbral Heart to an Astral Heart. Astral Hearts decrease the cast time and cost of Fire by half and only consume one Astral Heart per cast. If a Fire cast under the effect of an Astral Heart procs Firestarter, the Firestarter will upgrade to Blazestarter/Infernostarter.

Blazestarter/Infernostarter: Your next cast of Flare will have no cast timer and no MP cost.