Black Mage

[Remedi]

As things stand I wouldn't call SMN overtuned anymore for the simple reason that if you nerf SMN everyone is simply gonna run double ranged, which means that both RDM and BLM are undertuned or that ranged needs a nerf.
That aside the only redeeming quality that RDM has over SMN is beign a rez bot and while you might find it ok, honestly it's not that great.
Compare it to healer balance, while AST+SCH is preferred for speed runs WHM's raw power has a value especially in proh, RDM utility in chain ress diminishes even before prog ends(depends from battle tbh)as we already said their total dmg is even inferior to BLM atm.
In reality it's not who is in a worse state but casters as a whole are simply not that great in a team composition right now

[Llugen]

There certainly is no need to nerf SMN's damage to compensate, BLM just needs buffing to compensate and RDM needs a fix for Embolden to compensate.

Furthermore, the insane vice-grip of the physical meta needs to go away right now and something needs to be fixed with piercing either being removed or applicable from BRD/MCH as well, and ALL melee should get shadewalker instead of Diversion. Any nerf to any caster would only further hammer home the physical meta. In fact, I would propose that EVERYTHING that does "physical damage up" should just increase magic damage as well.


And yeah, to be blunt, these RDMs are basically whining that their class is "only good in prog and disposable afterward". well gee must be nice to have a class that's at least good/desired for SOMETHING.

[Llugen]

Go read my post in the other thread, it will illuminate for you why there is most certainly a line particularly with the caster role. Potential buffs to RDM very well can and most likely WILL invalidate any buffs to BLM because if the single target damage of RDM creeps up closer to BLM even with buffs, it will still be stronger to just take RDM and BLM will be even further in the outhouse.

[Dualgunner]

That's a very closed-minded way of thinking. No, it illuminates nothing besides you acting the same way Summoners did at the start of the expac, and now they're overtuned and the BLM they were shutting down are left in the dust.

[Llugen]

That is not "closed minded" thinking, that is verbatim exactly what happened. I've been saying that BLM isn't going to reflect its role (high damage no utility) since the beginning of 4.0 because I read what Eirene Snow wrote and Tsundere Imouto (with whom I work closely) and tested it myself and saw that the power was ALREADY creeping.

Classes are to be balanced at the highest levels of play, not the average levels of play. So tons of SMNs had no idea how to play their job which is why they wanted/needed buffs so badly. Now it's just insane. Should RDM get significant single target damage buffs, it will only further put BLM behind as "the strongest with the least utility". This is logic, not closed mindedness.

[Dualgunner]

snip

Let's stop for a moment.

We can both agree that SMN got overbuffed. We can both agree RDM does not need to be the strongest, or even the second strongest caster. I'm not asking for "significant" potency buffs; perhaps 10 potency per action on the melee combo. The fix to embolden we've both agreed is something RDM absolutely needs. We both agree Black Mage needs significant buffs from here.

My problem only comes in when you come around saying Red Mages should sit down and shut up and pretend we have zero problems until Black Mage's are fixed. Being buffed as though it was in a vacuum is what made SMN destroy BLM like it does.

[Remedi]

To be fair there could be the extreme for BLM to get a potency buff too, considering how pretty much everyone has access to fell cleave-like potency nowadays

But still I don't think this bickering will lead us anywhere

[Llugen]

I can just hear Peter Cushing saying "this bickering is pointless" as Governor Tarkin.

I'm not sure that it is "pointless" but it is definitely more heated than it should be. I apologize I'll cool off.

I envision RDM as being support and offensive utility, and I'm pretty sure SE would agree with me, so by that logic there is no need for any more personal damage from RDM, just more support. Groups already still love RDMs, whether or not one thinks it is "competitive at endgame" (which I'm pretty sure most would absolutely say that it is), so I don't think it's unreasonable to think that there is really no need to buff its damage, not to mention that its ability to handle mechanics has almost no bearing on its damage, unlike BLM, so yeah. It just seems very short-sighted to be interested in RDM buffs at this time.

[Remedi]

I can just hear Peter Cushing saying "this bickering is pointless" as Governor Tarkin.

Idd that was the intention all along

[Dualgunner]

I envision RDM as being support and offensive utility, and I'm pretty sure SE would agree with me, so by that logic there is no need for any more personal damage from RDM, just more support.

I would just prefer it if it had less support, and more offensive utility. Defensive utility wears off fast; again, PLD and WHM in 3.x.

It just seems very short-sighted to be interested in RDM buffs at this time.

And here's the main thing I actually disagree with you on: I don't think we should ignore one job's problems just because another job has bigger problems. They cannot be buffed in a vacuum; if anything it'd be better to buff them alongside each other, to better take into account their balance relative to each other.