Discipline of the Land reform

[Lerend]

I can tell a lot of effort was put in and it was really thought out well. But I don't support it simply because this is too in depth for me personally. All I want to do when I go out and gather is get some materials to sell or craft with. What you're suggesting, to me at least, seems like it requires a lot more input and strategy to harvest the same items that I can knock out with one hit right now. While I agree DoL does need some reforms (Kings yield for one allowing multiple items to be harvested when normally you can only get one from cobalt/electrum/etc) I don't think the foundation of the mini game needs to be changed. Not at least while DoH needs far more work put into it than DoL does. Also I like the simplicity of DoL right now to break away from the rest of the game.

I have to agree here. I'm sure the OP put a lot of time and thought into this, but reading it over it seems far too similar to the crafting jobs with a normal swing, a "more progress but more risk" swing, and a "more quality but more risk" swing, which is a system that admittedly doesn't work in its current iteration and everyone just spams enter unless they're really focusing on HQ results. The DoL definitely need some balancing tweaks and some reworks (like how we have a stat and skill that supposedly increases yield, but most important items are hard capped at a single yield, wth is that about?), but IMO the DoH reworks need to be done *first* so they know what items these nodes should actually be yielding and not have to go back and do it all over again.

Gathering is a part of MMOs that is a repetitive grind by design, there really isn't any way around that. The current system keeps it interactive, but if you make it too complex it becomes a chore that no one is interested in. When my girlfriend whos never played FFXIV walks up and asks "how does that little mining circle thinger work," if it takes more than five minutes to explain I would consider there to be some extremely fundamental flaws with the system. A complex system that takes fifteen minutes to mine a single node for 8 items just wouldn't be practically fun for the majority of the people playing.

I like the current system mechanically, it's just the yields and item tables that need reform.

[Nakiamiie]

I have to agree here. I'm sure the OP put a lot of time and thought into this, but reading it over it seems far too similar to the crafting jobs with a normal swing, a "more progress but more risk" swing, and a "more quality but more risk" swing, which is a system that admittedly doesn't work in its current iteration and everyone just spams enter unless they're really focusing on HQ results. The DoL definitely need some balancing tweaks and some reworks (like how we have a stat and skill that supposedly increases yield, but most important items are hard capped at a single yield, wth is that about?), but IMO the DoH reworks need to be done *first* so they know what items these nodes should actually be yielding and not have to go back and do it all over again.

Gathering is a part of MMOs that is a repetitive grind by design, there really isn't any way around that. The current system keeps it interactive, but if you make it too complex it becomes a chore that no one is interested in. When my girlfriend whos never played FFXIV walks up and asks "how does that little mining circle thinger work," if it takes more than five minutes to explain I would consider there to be some extremely fundamental flaws with the system. A complex system that takes fifteen minutes to mine a single node for 8 items just wouldn't be practically fun for the majority of the people playing.

I like the current system mechanically, it's just the yields and item tables that need reform.

Hello!

Thanks you CrstyCaptin and Lerend for the feedback.
I'd like to comment on your feedback.

First and foremost, I agree on the fact that many of us just go out there to quickly gather materials without much thoughts.
The changes proposed are not perfect and can be refined. However, I believe they still allow for quick gathering of items.
Here is how I see it:

1) Common items can be gathered from any resource point (a tree, for example) on the map instead of being limited to glowing nodes. This allows people to quickly engage in the gathering activity while extended activities in the area will still force the player to wander around to find other resources once they are "depleted" for that player (or everyone).

2) The loot table of items that can be gathered in an area is the same for all resources in that area, just like it is in the current system. For example, all grade 1 trees in the Black Shroud yield the same items. Players only need to have a general idea of where they can get an item to acquire it.

3) In the current system, the players selects on the gauge bar which item he aims for and then hope it is that item the game has picked for this gathering session. In my changed system, the player skip this step and moves the gauge bar through his actions and will ALWAYS get the item aimed for. This is not slower, but more predictable. More common items will be found near the starting point of the gauge bar, while rarer or more difficult items will be farther. Thus, it requires slightly more time to get rarer/tougher items just as it requires slightly more time to actually stumble on that item with the current system.
The difference lies with predictability. In the system I am proposing you can always get the item you want with a little skill.

It is not difficult to explain either, it's just a different explanation for each of the DoL, but the basics are the same. Strike in the center and you get the item you are currently aiming for.

As for the «a "more progress but more risk" swing, and a "more quality but more risk" swing», yes it is something I copied from the current Discipline of the Hand. I believe it can apply to DoL very well, but it can be changed. I tried to re-use as much as possible of the content currently in the game, but if the devs prefer to go from scratch, many things can be changed and improved, obviously.

Also, harvesting, quarrying and spearfishing would remain automated. I got the comment from some of my friends as well, they prefer automated gathering activities. Then, we have those like me who enjoy playing mini-games, that's why we need at least both.
Also, I am trying to figure 3 new activities for the three DoL that would bring random results, for those with a gambling side that don't like predictable results. My problem is, what will they be for? At first, I thought it would be great to have these new activities temporarily increase the number of glowing nodes in an area (glowing nodes hold either rare resources or high quality items in abundance in my new DoL), so people seeking rare/HQ items would not spend a lifetime looking for them. But now, I also think it could be something entirely new that is not currently in the game.

Unfortunately, I will not go into a detailed post about them at the moment. I am moving in another country in two weeks and I already have enough challenges to tackle as of now.

Hopefully this will help understanding my ideas more clearly.

On a semi-related note, I, too, believe that Discipline of the Hand need thorough overhaul. However, this post is about DoL, not DoH. Also, since I failed to come up with an amazing idea for a reform of DoH, I simply haven't posted about it. In addition to that, I believe the people working on the Discipline of the Hand and Land are two distinct teams within the devs, so working on one doesn't hinder progress on the other. Please, kind that in mind, no offence.

[Nakiamiie]

I will work on adapting my ideas for improved mini-games with this post in mind:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post534738

Also, I will introduce potential ideas for a Discipline of the Hand reform as well.
Please give me a few weeks since I'm moving to Japan very soon (and hopefully my computer don't suffer in the process, otherwise expect longer delays).

If you guys have more ideas, feel free to post them too.

[Soukyuu]

I do like the proposed change for the nodes, running around in la noscea trying to find an active node is just painful at times.
I don't know if I want more in-depth actions though.

MP/TP as a restriction on gathering attempts wouldn't work too well imho and it would be too easy to bot with that method, too. Just stand on one point and gather untill no mp left -> sit down -> stand up and continue gathering.

Which means they would have to put more points (sparkling or not) into maps, which would be too many (performance-wise) in case of Botanists. They'd have to put a gathering node into each patch of grass....

[Nakiamiie]

I do like the proposed change for the nodes, running around in la noscea trying to find an active node is just painful at times.
I don't know if I want more in-depth actions though.

MP/TP as a restriction on gathering attempts wouldn't work too well imho and it would be too easy to bot with that method, too. Just stand on one point and gather untill no mp left -> sit down -> stand up and continue gathering.

Which means they would have to put more points (sparkling or not) into maps, which would be too many (performance-wise) in case of Botanists. They'd have to put a gathering node into each patch of grass....

Actually, MP/TP wouldn't be the restriction to limit the gathering at one point. It would be like it currently is: after X items gathered, you need to walk someplace else. Say, Y malms away from the previous point (Y is lower as you get higher levels VS the grade of the area).

Also, there will always be botting unless we do make the mini-games challenging, in-depth and need to think through, like a puzzle.

[leomike35]

Good ideas guys. I do often wonder why dol/doh have mp but don't use it. I say make a use for mp on those classes or remove them.

[Soukyuu]

Actually, MP/TP wouldn't be the restriction to limit the gathering at one point. It would be like it currently is: after X items gathered, you need to walk someplace else. Say, Y malms away from the previous point (Y is lower as you get higher levels VS the grade of the area).

Yes, but does it make sense to do the limiting with TP/MP? It would mean they'd have to change the MP regen rules for DoL to only start regenerating while.... moving, I guess?

It makes more sense to keep the nodes in that case.

The nodes for miner/fsh can be implemented even with your system, and i do like the ore suggestion, but I don't really see how they can make gathering.. unless they do it so you can only gather certain grass types i guess.

[Nakiamiie]

Yes, but does it make sense to do the limiting with TP/MP? It would mean they'd have to change the MP regen rules for DoL to only start regenerating while.... moving, I guess?

It makes more sense to keep the nodes in that case.

The nodes for miner/fsh can be implemented even with your system, and i do like the ore suggestion, but I don't really see how they can make gathering.. unless they do it so you can only gather certain grass types i guess.

For the MP, it's mostly to prevent spamming. You can spam it a few times but then have to wait for the MP to regen.
As for TP, it lowers when you get outside gathering activity and is generated by the gathering activity, no problem here (just like TP in combat).

I think you meant harvesting? Harvesting could only be performed at big patch of tall grass/herbs. And since you'd have to move Y malms away once you finish the number of attempts, the closer patch are inaccessible even though there are many of them. Unless, of course, the character is high level enough that Y malms away means only a few steps.

That way, higher level characters can remain in the same area longer to gather ingredients but no experience points. However, lower level characters have to move around a lot more, because they are inexperienced with higher grades of resources (just like any beginner would walk past something valuable if it's not obvious). It also makes higher level resources less attractive to lower level gatherers since they have to move much farther for the next one (prevents everyone from simply going for the highest resources nodes at any level).

[Soukyuu]

No objections there, sounds good to me.