WAR raid "UTILITY" (Tank Balanced achieved?)

[MyaValentine]

-the 2 bolded parts contradict eachother, so I'd wager this is a moot point. (But it is worth mentioning this, because of SE's reasoning behind why they made DRK how it is.)

-Technically it was 4 PLDs and 4 WARs, with the PLDs using hallowed for various parts, and helping with clemency on other parts. the PLDs usually MTed, while the WARs were just DPS with survivability.

-WAR did more dmg as a MT than DRK did. Only reason DRK was the MT, was because part of its DPS requires being hit, and WAR did even more dps in OT than DRK does, so the best way to utilize them both, was to put the DRK into MT stance, despite the fact 2 WARs would do more DPS than DRK+WAR. (plus WAR would mitigate more dmg than a DRK would. My group even did double WAR tanking, even with the slight hit to our LB.)
PLD handled physical heavy fights better than DRK. DRK had to rely on foresight, and a reprisal, in order to survive tank busters, and then living dead when those were down, as every other physical CD was down too.
I forget which all those were, other than Sophia (which DRK is fine for, unless ur other tank dies, and u need to take constant TBs) and A11S, which had me stretch my CDs too thin, as there wasnt magic dmg to worry about.
PLD lacked CDs for magical heavy fights, and usually just did a tank swap, to last long enough till the next CD was ready.



-The difference in DPS, compared to DRK, in 3.0, was roughly +100 for WAR, and -100 for PLD.

- That's not a contradiction regarthless of rotation or situation if you have a drk in your party you will maximize more damage by having him as MT as it will do more damage and the other 2 tanks will do more damage as you later pointed out.

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSwjtz1Jvg4

-war did not do more damage as mt, stance dance=/= tanks stance, if for some reason drk had to saty the whole fight in tank stance drk did more damage overall. war was just op stance dancing mt was the strongest in everything. most of the fights in HW had magic tank buster then they change it but it didn't change anything as drk+war still offered more mitigation and damage.

- I don't know where to begin but if you think the difference was only 100 dps you are denial not only the difference was higher and the fflogs for pallys were mostlly inflated warriors could more constantly bring those numbers pld could only reach it with dedicated groups, not only that the dps gain didn't came only in personal damage, warrior constant slashing debuff and physical damage debuff allowed for dps to hit harder and healers to dps more, combine with drk you had a full magic/physiscal 10% mitigation warrior self sustain also translated into more healer dps, you will overall net more dps with a warrior than what you could ever done with a paladin.
but as you said this was later patched but bringing down the dps checks demand and allowed for more flexible tank damage.
and yeah while for now the gap is 200 between war and drk you are completely right with 5% vs 20%

not only that but there's nothing you will get with one tank you will miss with the other not only the difference in dps is minimal the none of them offer significant pt buffs to blow eachother out of the water, the balance is much better drk just need a small adjustement and we might have it.

[Claire_Pendragon]

10 and 11 also have a number of magical mechanics and busters

idk 6 and 8 well enough, but 10 and 11 definitely didnt have magical busters.
(its why ppl mentioned PLD MTs for 11 instead of DRK alone, due to there being too many physical TBs.)

- That's not a contradiction regarthless of rotation or situation if you have a drk in your party you will maximize more damage by having him as MT as it will do more damage and the other 2 tanks will do more damage as you later pointed out.

Im not following what your saying. if a WAR stays in deliverance, even in MT position, they will out DPS a DRK who was outside of grit while MTing. I can only agree if you're suggesting a DRK in grit does more dmg than a WAR in defiance.

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSwjtz1Jvg4

It seems I mistaken his 4 PLD and 4 WAR run on A12S with his Thoradan run, which was all WARs then. (I had forgotten about this.)

-war did not do more damage as mt, stance dance=/= tanks stance, if for some reason drk had to saty the whole fight in tank stance drk did more damage overall. war was just op stance dancing mt was the strongest in everything. most of the fights in HW had magic tank buster then they change it but it didn't change anything as drk+war still offered more mitigation and damage.

If peopel did it right, u never needed to be in tank stance ever. Just swap, and double up on CDs, since you always had CDs on the OT, that werent being utilized, and with WAR they had them constantly.
I dont really see where you get DRK did more dmg as a MT out of grit. It just doesnt add up. If you're staying out of tank stance, or even dancing, then your DPS should be comparable to your OT DPS, which we know WAR did more of. Plus DRKs need to waste a GCD to turn on grit only hindered them further, worse than a WAR wasting a GCD to Inner Beast.
The only thing DRK had, was reprisal, which was a DPS gain over Vengeance, but not to WAR as a whole.

- I don't know where to begin but if you think the difference was only 100 dps you are denial not only the difference was higher and the fflogs for pallys were mostlly inflated warriors could more constantly bring those numbers pld could only reach it with dedicated groups, not only that the dps gain didn't came only in personal damage, warrior constant slashing debuff and physical damage debuff allowed for dps to hit harder and healers to dps more, combine with drk you had a full magic/physiscal 10% mitigation warrior self sustain also translated into more healer dps, you will overall net more dps with a warrior than what you could ever done with a paladin.

My numbers solely came from early reports of the differences of tanks at 3.0, not later. I never really looked into the differences after each patch, solely because I was the kind of person who would bring double PLDs, because I honestly didnt care that much. I just happen to see what people are saying, took a small look, and didnt dwell on it too much patch after patch.


But I still agree that the balance of SB is better than HW. My only point was that just about any hard core DRK MT could do more DPS if they tried to MT as WAR. (But no hardcore raid group wants to double up on jobs due to LB nerf. Putting DRK or PLD in the OT slot would reduce total raid dmg, but if both MT and OT were WAR, then you wouldnt lower raid dmg.)

I think the better arguement of DRK MT, isnt about it being over WAR, but it being over PLD.
idk the exact numbers, but I did hear PLD got closer to DRK after the patches.
The issue I would see, is that RoH wasnt going to be used for DPS, so the -STR isnt being applied, where as delirium is being applied for -INT.
Then reprisal is -10%, while shield swipe is a useless pacify.
The only thing PLD had, to help with raid DPS, was hallowed ground, but even then, living dead can be comparable, depending on the situation. (Including having a WHM instead of AST/SCH combo)

suggest buffing sole survivor so that it converts party dps into an hp and mp refresh on the party by taking % of average party dps

Actually just make it so each attack landed ont he enemy is a small heal to HP, MP, and TP, by a % of their max. This encourages ppl to kill that target, if there are multiple targets, and isnt too broken for getting healer MP back. Id also make it not work on the DRK, since the DRK is getting HP/MP at the end.

[Chrono_Rising]

idk 6 and 8 well enough, but 10 and 11 definitely didnt have magical busters.
(its why ppl mentioned PLD MTs for 11 instead of DRK alone, due to there being too many physical TBs.)

In 10 all the stack and spread mechanics were magic based. 11 Had the hawk eye thing... I forget what it was but it put a massive circle around you and hit fairly hard and since your healers were far away it needed cooldowns in prog with autos. Also the dash mechanics were magic based but I doubt anyone mitigated for this. On this subject we have the 11 killer of pld on this turn, which was that you could holmgang and living dead through almost all of the actual tank busters and never do the mechanic where as pld at 7 minutes could not cheese as many. Though this issue went away as people got faster the stigma remained.