WAR raid "UTILITY" (Tank Balanced achieved?)

[MyaValentine]

if you look on the dps and the only factor is how punishing the rotation is you may be right that it's fair that DRK does less damage overall.

however, dps is not the only thing a tank has to worry about: dps, mitigation, selfheal, utility. the DRK is behind in everything. if we had better mitigation to make up for the dps loss, fine, i wouldn't say anything. but when WAR gets his aoe shield now he has even better utility than DRK. in the WAR - PLD comparsion the balance gets better, but DRK falls behind now even more.

alright so it's safe to say that WAR/PLD are in a good spot atm, the only tank that needs some small adjustment will be DRK, I agree that drk just feels like it needs more mitigation and probably a bit more damage and I'd believe drk will be on a good spot too, maybe give them scourge back will fix the class for many.

[Deathshiro]

That is true but i don't think the difference should be so great when PLD is essentially tied with WAR give or take 50 dps. PLD is no longer as simple as it was but it's not very difficult. I don't want DRK to deal 200 more dps, I just think the difference is a little drastic.

The dps should be:

WAR>DRK>PLD.
PLD has the largest defensive & Utility kit in the game whilst WAR SHOULD have the least yet make up for it in DPS. DRK SHOULD be middle of the road in terms of this.

Now we are at a odd... and honestly stupid balance time now...
WAR has some of the best mitigation, whilst also doing marginally better dps than PLD.
PLD is the 2nd best dps closing in rather close to War, has a super simple rotation(goring -> Royalx2 -> Goring -> holyx5 -> repeat is pathetic easy)
DRK has the worst DPS, Utility, AND Defensives, their niche of parry/magic tank is gone, they've lost their 20s active mitigation (Reprisal) lost their reliable parry/avoidance buff(Dark Dance) while also losing a second DPS combo (Old Delirium)

What do they have to make up for it?... nothing, quite literally they have 0 redeeming qualities.
Played all the tanks in savage 1-4... I see no reason to touch DRK other than my pride.

[Claire_Pendragon]

DRK has the worst DPS, Utility, AND Defensives, their niche of parry/magic tank is gone, they've lost their 20s active mitigation (Reprisal) lost their reliable parry/avoidance buff(Dark Dance) while also losing a second DPS combo (Old Delirium)

What do they have to make up for it?... nothing, quite literally they have 0 redeeming qualities.
Played all the tanks in savage 1-4... I see no reason to touch DRK other than my pride.

Dark Dance was replaced by Anticipation, which is roughly~ on par. The evasion gain was only really useful in speed running 4man dungeons. As the MP lost is a DPS loss.
But DRK did lose Foresight, which was the filler they had when all other CDs were used up. Leaving DRK with just enough CDs for 4man when they had foresight. (It wasnt enough for bosses, which is why reprisal was used as a filler CD.)
We did gain TBN to cover the lost mitigation of foresight (and it is superior for tank busters, but inferior for trash packs)

The lost delirium combo technically was replaced by Soul Eater. And the old Soul Eater was technically replaced by Blood Spiller.
(as the go to filler DPS combo, and the go to burst DPS combo)
but using BS is obviously easier than having to rev up the 1st 2 parts of the soul eater combo, as its treated like a fell cleave.

DRK lost Scourge, but Scourge wasnt made for the purpose of making DRK do more dmg, it was made to make DRKs have something else to look at in the UI.
Now that the UI is improved, SE can make people look at other UI elements, other than just DoTs.
So looking at the blood gauge was the intended replacement.
Too bad looking at the blood gauge is 99% useless.
You see shiny proc, you use shiny proc.
The amount of blood you have, isnt necessary to keep an eye on, except in rare cases where you want to save up enough for 2 BSs in a Trick Attack window, but even then, capping at a 100 is going to be a DPS loss depending on how long ur doing it.
It would ONLY be reasonable to watch it, if the gauge actually capped at 140, so as to let u make judgement calls on its spending.
(I actually feel the same about RDM, they need to raise the max amount u can hold, while capping manification at +50 +50, so as to push RDMs into using procs before comboing, to raise the skill ceiling a bit more.)

[Canadane]

Unfortunately the balance is also just making everything the same.

[Claire_Pendragon]

Unfortunately the balance is also just making everything the same.

Sort of. (Depends on your point of view.)
As long as there are 3 roles, the requirements for their role need to be equivalent, but they dont need to be the same in execution.

With examples such as Tempered Will vs Plunge, Hallowed Ground vs Holmgang, Inner Beast vs Sheltron.
Tempered will doesnt require the need to jump back into position, and doesnt require more accurate timing. Plunge does dmg, so its not always up, or requires being held onto, along with animation clipping.
Holmgang does require some healing, doesnt last long, binds in place, leaving some negative effects, and requires you have a target to hit with it, rather than self targeting,but also is up more often, leading to more CD uptime on auto attacks.
Inner Beast requires a target in melee range to hit, and does some dmg, but is on the GCD, and interferes with fell cleaves. Sheltron is oGCD, reduces less dmg, and helps trigger procs for more dmg, such as shield swipe.
They can both feel the same, and feel different. It's up to personal taste as to which you like better in playstyle, rather than viewing them as "roles" in which one 1 job can fit the bill for.

[Tegernako]

Dark Dance was replaced by Anticipation, which is roughly~ on par. The evasion gain was only really useful in speed running 4man dungeons. As the MP lost is a DPS loss.

And where do DRK/WAR have room to slot anticipation? It basically does not exist.

The lost delirium combo technically was replaced by Soul Eater. And the old Soul Eater was technically replaced by Blood Spiller.

And the utility from int down was lost. And "old" souleater was replaced by a move you use infrequently in comparison. As I've said elsewhere, my issue is it was taken away but given no replacement.

(as the go to filler DPS combo, and the go to burst DPS combo)
but using BS is obviously easier than having to rev up the 1st 2 parts of the soul eater combo, as its treated like a fell cleave.


Yeah, the thing is it's a "FC" that takes far longer to achieve frequently! And it's dps is still a loss in comparison to PLD/WAR overall

DRK lost Scourge, but Scourge wasnt made for the purpose of making DRK do more dmg, it was made to make DRKs have something else to look at in the UI.

?

snippy snip snip

[Azerhan]

[QUOTE=Claire_Pendragon;4419704]

DRK lost Scourge, but Scourge wasnt made for the purpose of making DRK do more dmg, it was made to make DRKs have something else to look at in the UI.

Scourge, a dot that makes 500 potency over the time. But "it's not for dps". Lel.
A dot is here to do dps even if you have to move. It's that all.

Btw, tanks aren't balanced. At least, PLD is, WAR soon with the new Shake it off, but DRK...
Less dps than other two tank. Less self utilities than other two tanks. Soon, less party utilities than other two tanks.
And I don't mention the gameplay, WAR 60 is way funnier than DRK 70...

I don't understand why. Except the fact that PLD's dps was very too much low during HW, the paradigm PLD MT, WAR OT and DRK the "I'll take this empty chair, m'kay?" was really good.

[Claire_Pendragon]

snippy snip snip

For the most part I agree, though only difference id argue is that you couldnt DA delirium before, so the option to DA or not, "almost" reaches this.
As for anticipation, yeah, it is true i tend to take it off for quite a few endgame fights, dependent on how our group works.

Scourge, a dot that makes 500 potency over the time. But "it's not for dps". Lel.
A dot is here to do dps even if you have to move. It's that all.

Im not saying a DoT doesnt do dmg.
I'm saying the mechanical function of a DoT is to be mechanically different from your other abilities. (all of your abilities, are designed to make sure the enemy dies before you do, thats a given)
123 combo wouldnt feel much different if you just slapped a 4 at the end.
so as to avoid spamming the DoT, its dmg requires a certain amount of time to pass.
but why do you think just about every job used to have DoTs, and coincidentally, most of the "Timers" that jobs had to worry about, became easier or lessened when gauges came out?
Why did gauges only come out now?

PS3 limitations.

They wanted to make differing mechanics to each job, but they also had to fit within the limitations of the UI, and make rotations that werent just a 4th step or 5th step added.

In short, all the DoTs, and short term Buffs, and Buffs that get consumed, were just a different way of portraying "resource bars"
(an example being wrath. 5 stacks is either viewed as 5 combo points, or a bar which upgrades 20%, but is now a bar, which can be affected by increments other than 20% now.)

Im saying DRK lost its DoT, because the DoT was mechanically only there to add a level of complexity.
(Which they failed to recreate with the blood gauge. Regardless if its better or worse, or if the blood gauge isnt damage over time, but damage in a small burst after being built up.)

[Tegernako]

For the most part I agree, though only difference id argue is that you couldnt DA delirium before, so the option to DA or not, "almost" reaches this.
As for anticipation, yeah, it is true i tend to take it off for quite a few endgame fights, dependent on how our group works.
)

True enough.

But your explanation for scourge makes no sense when you think about PLD. Because all the skills the other tanks lost, PLD kept.

[MyaValentine]

True enough.

But your explanation for scourge makes no sense when you think about PLD. Because all the skills the other tanks lost, PLD kept.

pld was the simplest class in the game, all throughout ARR and HW I loved paladin for the eastetic for what it was and what it was supposed to be, if they took anything ANYTHING from pld might aswell leave it a aouto combo class because simply it can't get any simpler. thank fully SB change this I do believe drk needs scourge I think they actually oversimpplified the class too much and now it feels like pld did back in hw.