Monk ignored for 4.1

**Oscura** · 10-20-2017 10:09 AM

Anyone who thinks Monk hasn't been ignored for a good while is in proper denial. 2.1 was the only time the class received any huge changes to its kit or how it performed. Everything else that has been added (or removed) afterward has been nothing but incomplete ideas and utter nonsense. I keep thinking I want to play the class seriously until I remember that I can play any of the other melee counterparts and have a kit that isn't a mess that was regurgitated from the minds of whoever works on the class in the first place. The class is incredibly stale, and many of the changes made to it add absolutely zero incentive to enjoy playing it. The kit has so many holes in it that have been constantly mentioned that at this point Monk players are getting tired of talking about it. I had faith in Square Enix that seeing as this would be the "Monk" expansion the same way HW was Dragoon's, that they would take extra care with the class. After seeing the mess called Tackle Mastery and the literal deconstruction of Monk's playstyle in Riddle of Fire, as well as ToD/Fracture being removed, it just feels sluggish. Brotherhood is simply a personal cooldown disguised as raid utility.

Monk does plenty of DPS and does DPS quite well, but if a class isn't fun then there's no point in playing it. It will always be one of the least popular jobs because of that.

**Exiled_Tonberry** · 10-20-2017 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Tigerlilley

They actually said in the live letter (unofficially translated) that any jobs not mentioned here and now will not be changed. So the comment about waiting for patch notes was ridiculous in the first place.

People always say it. It feels like it's some kind of white knight defense mechanism set in place to delay disappointment or something at this point.

Anyway, it's pretty clear that Monk needs a full rework. Speed is no longer their thing, and SE seems to be terrified of making us go faster. So what we end up with is a job that moves as fast as a Ninja, with a longer ramp up, positionals up the ass and beyond punishing downtimes because for whatever reason, PB is still on a billion minute CD.

**Greywolfamakir** · 10-21-2017 12:10 AM

I really dont undestand why people ask things like "Monk should be more fun" "SE have to improve gameplay of Monk..." and at the same time, the same ppl post ideas to fix Monk like:

"Brotherhood should increase magic damage" or
"Make brotherhood increases damage to monk" or
"Increase potency when you miss positionals" or
"PB half CD"...

If you think that this kind of "enhancements" are what monk needs you dont think about "fun" or "gameplay", you think about "GET THE MONK INTO META !!!"

**SpeckledBurd** · 10-21-2017 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

-snip-

The only one of those you're claiming that's a straight buff to Monk is Increasing Magic Damage and Brotherhood giving its 5% to Monk, and of those two the desire for Brotherhood applying to casters is partially a quality of life issue. Because Brotherhood doesn't apply to casters, if we end up in a caster heavy comp via the Duty Finder our level 70 skill for all intents and purposes may as well not exist. It's fucking miserable to simultaneously have Riddle of Fire reduce our cast time so we can double weave...only to not actually get any chakras so we have nothing to double weave. I don't need for it to buff magic damage, but it should at least proc off spells or have some other way of giving us chakras so we actually have consistent output instead of getting slowed down so we can weave a bunch of skills we're not getting. The increase in missed positional damage isn't a buff to monk at the top end, it just makes it less punishing to face tank mobs or miss positionals. You know what melee jobs have received this QOL fix? Every melee Job with positionals except Monk, so we've simultaneously got the most positionals and the most to lose from them.

AND 1/2 PB? IT'S LITERALLY WHAT GIVES US OUR PERSISTENT DAMAGE BUFF. IT'S NOT LIKE ASKING TO FIRE OFF TORNADO KICK WITHOUT LOSING OUR STACKS WITH ABANDON. DRAGOON AND BLACK MAGE HAVE EQUIVALENT SKILLS ON A 30 SECOND COOLDOWN TO GET A LONGER BUFF. There is no reason it should be 3 minutes long unless you think Monk should be the only job that gets screwed over by the boss going untargetable 90 seconds into the fight like so many love to do.

Not a one of these changes would get Monk into the Meta, it would just make monk less of a massive pain in the ass to play.

Edit: Also any actual recommendation that can make to improve Monk can just be called a buff in a vacuum. Returning Touch of Death/Fracture and making the Demolish timer to 21 seconds? It would improve the job's flow but also technically be a buff to our potency per minute. Some kind of Umbral Hearts esque system where Monk gains stacks of something for refreshing Greased Lightning so we can use a powerful attack can be called a buff. Even changing Tackle Mastery into something like "Form Mastery" which removes the time limit on our forms and allows us to refresh Greased Lightning by formshifting through Coeurl could even be called a buff, even if it just makes the job at best equivalent to Dragoon and Black Mage in ability to maintain our persistent buff through downtime.

It's not like Monk is super OP at the moment in the way Ninja is. It actually is probably a bit lower than what it should be being behind Summoner (which has slightly better raidwide buffs) and tied with Machinist (which has much better raidwide buffs), so who cares if improvements to our quality of life also coincidentally improve it's ability as a DPS? Certainly not the devs. They've buffed the DPS of Summoner in the course of tweaking it to the point where it's within one percent of Samurai's damage on most fiights, they buffed Bard's DPS when they reduced the recast on Barrage and the duration of Straight Shot (when it was already one of the strongest jobs mind you), and they buffed Machinist's DPS so substantially that it's currently tied with Monk for DPS while offering better support as well (again, when it was already one of the strongest jobs).

**Rhaja** · 10-24-2017 03:42 AM

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

People always say it. It feels like it's some kind of white knight defense mechanism set in place to delay disappointment or something at this point.

Anyway, it's pretty clear that Monk needs a full rework. Speed is no longer their thing, and SE seems to be terrified of making us go faster. So what we end up with is a job that moves as fast as a Ninja, with a longer ramp up, positionals up the ass and beyond punishing downtimes because for whatever reason, PB is still on a billion minute CD.

I'm really glad to see I'm not the only one who see's this issue. As of right now DRG is the only melee DPS who doesn't get a haste buff, which really makes MNK's supposed focus on Speed really hard to swallow.

What I can get behind is ramp up and stockpiling, something MNK already does fairly well. I would honestly prefer GL and Chakra's to become something more akin to combo points that MNK spends on oGCD's.

**Exiled_Tonberry** · 10-21-2017 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

"GET THE MONK INTO META !!!"

Everything I wanted to say was already said by SpeckledBurd, but seriously. At least attempt to actually read the thread instead of jumping in and claiming that we're just asking for buffs.
Everything we're discussing in here is to help Monk's current playstyle and clunkiness, not push us into the meta.

Why should Monk be so heavily reliant on physical comps to the point where we're massively gimped if we happen to have two casters?

Why is Monk, the job with the most positionals, the only job that hasn't gotten decreased punishment for missed positionals, especially in a raid tier where everything seems to want to face the group and screw up everything.

Why should Monk's "buff" work against them to the point where Demolish has to be either clipped heavily or is dropped for a tick?

You would have to actually play Monk to k ow exactly how bad all of this and more is.

**Lastelli** · 10-21-2017 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Why is Monk, the job with the most positionals, the only job that hasn't gotten decreased punishment for missed positionals, especially in a raid tier where everything seems to want to face the group and screw up everything.

Well, this is a funny question. The answer is: because mnk is all about positionals. If you compare MNK to any other melee, it's easy to see that the job's personal mechanic IS its positionals. You basically have nothing else to manage since you more or less use everything on cd, when you exclude the extremely trivial "don't use IR before bootshine". DRG have eye stacks/geirskogul/lotd management, which became much more important and engaging after 4.1 changes. NIN have ninjutsu and a separate ninki rotation built around TA and TCJ that changes based on almost every fight. SAM have 3 non linear combos + sen and kenki management. I mean, if you take the positionals away from MNK or make them very forgiving...you have an easier versione of PLD. At least PLD has a magic session lol

Why should Monk's "buff" work against them to the point where Demolish has to be either clipped heavily or is dropped for a tick?

This really doesn't make a difference. The only thing that matters is damage. DoTs clipping is totally irrelevant, unless you're some kind of crazy DoT maniac. DRG always clip their CT DoT, the same is true for NIN's SF and there are also instances where SAM might have to clip higanbana dot depending on hagakure cd and available sen. But I could probably just say "Iron Jaws" and leave it at that. In short, DoT clipping is a very weak argument.

**Silver-Strider** · 10-22-2017 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by Lastelli

snip

There are so many flaws with this that I don't even know where to start.
Considering that other melee jobs still have positionals, to state that it's MNK's personal mechanic is ludicrous. I still remember when DRG had just as many positionals as MNK and were much more punished for missing them then MNK ever was (No Heavy Thrust buff if not used from Flank being the most frustrating IMO back in the day). Additionally, the fact even an entirely new melee class (SAM) has positionals as well just further makes this train of thought laughably bad. Then, you state that damage is all that matters but when MNKs damage is being kneecaped by it's "own" mechanics, doesn't this sort of demonstrate the exact problem with MNK? Why is it that every other class keeps getting free passes while MNK is sort of left to the wayside?

**Sora_Oathkeeper** · 10-22-2017 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

snip

I mean, back when MNK was actually top dps, positionals being on every form gcd was basically what determined the good MNKs from the bad. I agree though that positionals is not just MNK's mechanic, every melee has them. But MNK is punished way more than it should be now. We are no longer the top personal DPS in the game. Our skill ceiling is still just as high and just as punishing as ever before in fact even more so because we cannot offset a positional with ToD or Fracture. And True North's CD is so fucking long that it's nothing but a short term fix in a fight like V3s where the boss is constantly jumping around. Not to mention our buff timers are so short compared to everyone elses. Honestly DRG still has something like 6s on refreshing HT, that's almost 3 GCDs, TwS and DK have about 3s left? Basically 1-2 GCD away from falling off (during RoF it's more like 1s before refresh) That's almost the equivalent of running out of a melee range aoe attack and our buffs fall off.

The gap becomes even bigger when you factor in potencies at GL3. For reference, Snap punch is 170 from the flank and 130 from outside that. GL3(factoring out other buffs) puts it up to 221 from the flank and 169 from outside. That 40 potency drop off is now actually a 52 potency drop off. Now imagine we factor in all other buffs excluding RoF. positional = 280.78 potency. missed positional = 214.71. That's 66.07 potency lost. now imagine if we miss the positional inside RoF's window. 365 - 279= 86 potency drop off. Monk is punished really badly for missing any positional than any other melee (except maybe TA) but you have 10s to hit the rear. Despite having a simple rotation, the potency drop off on missed positionals, short timers on forms and buffs, perfect balance's ridiculous CD length, combined with clunky gimmicks to keep GL3 make Monk a real pain to play. I mained the job since 2.1 and it felt good to play for ARR and HW, because it felt like from ARR -> HW that monk actually progressed. We got a way to expend GL3 when we could keep it, we got a way to get to GL quicker with form shift, and we got 2 of the most badass abilities in the form of Forbidden Chakra and Elixir Field. I felt like the job progressed and the HW story set up for more opportunities to gain different chakra abilities (seriously, 7 chakras of light and 7 chakras of darkness and we can only use 5 still(?)) But this time we got Brotherhood, RoE, RoF, Deep Med. & the best one, fire tackle. Yay. 3 buffs and 2 traits.

No new dps skills on a DPS. a buff that was basically a b4b replacement except with a hinderance attached. The worst raid buff in the game, brotherhood. Although not bad for gaining chakras, but I'd rather deep meditation worked off GL3 refreshes when GL3 was already active(At least it would have some synergy with PB) instead of deep med and brotherhood chakras working against each other and missing potential forbidden chakras because RNG. And lastly we got RoE, because apparently hitting a CD to just refresh your already lowest timer in the game wasn't easy enough like it is with DRGs 30s timer (that can actually be as high as 80s counting LotD>BotD>CD BotD) and BLMs Enochian that can already be kept indefinitely with transpose. Nope we got the short end of the stick and have to actually be hit. Can't hit that last snap punch before the boss jumps? GG you now have about 7-8s to be hit.(even if you TK the boss would jump before the damage applies loll) But it's okay you can spam form shift because that 10s timer is going to run out too, too bad your last hit crit and you got a 5th chakra which you now can't even use meditation to make use of your downtime. The saddest part of all this is that despite hating what MNK has become when it had so much potential to become something even more than it's HW iteration, it just doesn't. I wonder how many more posts we need before we'll get GL4 in some way. I mean they said it was a possibility and after everything else we got this expansion GL4 would be my saving grace to the job as it was the most obvious progression point for the job.

use my fflogs for reference. I've played MNK at a high skill level for a long time

**Greywolfamakir** · 10-24-2017 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Everything we're discussing in here is to help Monk's current playstyle and clunkiness, not push us into the meta.

ok...lets read...

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Why should Monk be so heavily reliant on physical comps to the point where we're massively gimped if we happen to have two casters?

gameplay? no, its about comps, no gameplay or "fun" here, just "pls make monk meta"

Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Why is Monk, the job with the most positionals, the only job that hasn't gotten decreased punishment for missed positionals, especially in a raid tier where everything seems to want to face the group and screw up everything.

gameplay? nope again, its about "positional punish"...its about Potency and DPS...again "monk should be meta !! "

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