~Poll~ Longer fights <Do you want it?>

[Jocko]

As far as debuffs against cannon fodder - fools errand. That goes against the pourpose of cannon fodder which is to die quickly

And this is the issue.

Tell me, because I've never quite understood, what's the appeal of 'cannon fodder' style enemies? Not just in MMO's, but other games as well, particularly Dynasty Warriors. There's no effort or skill, no thinking or brain power put into it, so where does the 'fun' come in?

Think about it like this: You're given a device of sorts, with nothing but a single button below an LCD screen that displays '000'. You're told that every time you press that button, the counter will go up by 1, increasing your score. Now, tell me, how long do you think the device would hold your attention? What would you rate the amount of 'fun' you're having out of 10 over, say, 30 minutes?

Now, imagine the same device, but with an addition; Now there's a pendulum of sorts connected to the device, with a marker over it's center point. You're now told that to increase your score, you must push the button when the pendulum is aligned with the marker as it swings to and fro. Compare this to last device, and rate it in the same way. I bet you'd find that the added, although slight, amount of depth would keep you interested in the second device longer than the first; There's more intricacies, more rules to gauge, and more brain stimulation overall.

'Cannon fodder' enemies are what I would compare the first device to, and what Rokien is asking for is what I would consider the second. So again, what's the appeal? Why bother taking the time to level up if it's not fun? Grinding shouldn't be a wall to endgame, it should be an equally enjoyable experience. At least, in my mind. I mean, you're paying to do it, after all.

[Hyrist]

Tell me, because I've never quite understood, what's the appeal of 'cannon fodder' style enemies?

I'll tell you flat out.

Cannon fodder, if ignored or understimated, becomes a dangerous element, especially when spotted with stronger enemies.

For example. Castra Novum. A good number of the monsters there can be killed with ease, but if you sit and do so, you'll be trapped in a never ending battle with spawn rates wearing down your healers until you eventually succumb and die due to lack of fight control.

Pair that off with the fact that you really have to pay attention to the big guys spattered among them and you've got a fight on your hands.

Imagine Garuda without her Plumes. Without the cannon fodder providing a constant threat to your protection from her 2hr, that fight would be just a 'tank and spank' which is actually more boring than fighting cannon fodder.

Beyond that? Cannon Fodder is a sense of empowerment of your character. You are better than the average mob, about equal to the uncommon mobs, and need to team up with friends to fight the superior mobs.

Now there are ways to make things more challenging, but following Roiken's suggestion and making field monsters harder is not the answer - and actually expresses a lack of exploration of the game on his end. If you go to any of the Beastmen strongholds or Castra Novum, you will see the dynamic fighting style I have just described. Those fights are not boring or unsatasfying, if you're not careful, they can be quite dangerous, especially Castra Novum. Granted, some areas could use a bit more spotting of the stronger version to balance things out, but people will usually go the path of least resistance, buy and large, so some areas where you can kill Cannon Fodder only will be desired to remain as is.

So no, your analogy is very far off the marker, really as there's a huge difference between describing the fights on paper and actually participating.

I agree that Grinding shoulden't be a wall to endgame, but that is also an argument for faster leveling, because any repeatable content that is not endgame that does not get reused for endgame, will die off and become failed resources.

In the meanwhile, Leves, Quests, Storyline all keep the 'grind' more interesting as you level up faster.

[Alerith]

Take the Imperials in the United We Stand fight. The actual mech itself is a bit tough, and you need to do enough damage to the you know what to win.

Then there are the Imperial Troops that spawn. They seem to be a minor pain. Easy to round up and kill. But god help you if you don't. They'll slaughter your mages if left to their own Imperial devices.

[Hyrist]

Take the Imperials in the United We Stand fight. The actual mech itself is a bit tough, and you need to do enough damage to the you know what to win.

Then there are the Imperial Troops that spawn. They seem to be a minor pain. Easy to round up and kill. But god help you if you don't. They'll slaughter your mages if left to their own Imperial devices.

United We Stand is quite possibly the best example of that system used right now. There are other ways of creating interesting battles, but note that they are all designed fights for raids or storyline.

Speaking realistically, that's where you are going to find the most interesting fights every time. You can't ask that of field monsters.

Now, you can do somethings that make field monsters more interesting, like dynamic monster behavior (Like how Marmots cower and Deer flee to bait you in for a back-kick, or how Gnats teleport. But these things will only really be seen solo.

For group fights, the enemies do not need to just have 'moar hp so they don't die as fast'. They need to have group dynamics, which they have, though in its ifancy. It would be nice if there was better group catagories like in the Mog Fight. You might not see it kiting everyone, but each moogle functions slightly differently, working at a different role. We get some hints of that in beast-men dungeons, but it can be fleshed out better. But again, that can't happen in the open field - the best place for that would be in strongholds.

What I'm trying to state here is that Roiken needs to get out more and do dungeon raids and beast-men strongholds. That's where you're going to find the dynamic group fights your seeking. Don't impede on solo content to enforce group rules.

[Jocko]

For example. Castra Novum. A good number of the monsters there can be killed with ease, but if you sit and do so, you'll be trapped in a never ending battle with spawn rates wearing down your healers until you eventually succumb and die due to lack of fight control.

I agree, Castra is among my favorite pieces of content in the game, and I would really love to see more like it, but it's really not on topic. It's an endgame area, not part of the leveling process at all, which is what this thread is about

Imagine Garuda without her Plumes. Without the cannon fodder providing a constant threat to your protection from her 2hr, that fight would be just a 'tank and spank' which is actually more boring than fighting cannon fodder.

I wouldn't consider the plumes as cannon fodder at all, it's not their purpose. They're more like obstacles; extensions of Garuda herself, not individual mobs. Even if you were to consider them such, they still have more complexities than most enemy types found in the fields; They're highly magic resistant, have a planned movement pattern, and have the ticking time bomb mechanic. You can't really compare them to the average Dodo

Beyond that? Cannon Fodder is a sense of empowerment of your character.

This I can understand, but I don't see eye to eye with it. In my mind, empowerment should come from you, the player, being skilled enough to defeat a mob, not your avatar simply having the stats. Now, I know that is among one of the founding pillars of the RPG genre, but that's doesn't mean I have to agree with it. When playing jrpgs, I always find myself underleveled, as I intentionally avoid numerous encounters because I feel as if I'm breaking the game, and therefore removing the fun if I can simply overpower enemies and bosses with stats alone. Finding the enemy weaknesses, and formulating party compositions to make up for lacking statistics is where the enjoyment comes from, not seeing big numbers flash on the screen.

So no, your analogy is very far off the marker, really as there's a huge difference between describing the fights on paper and actually participating.

I don't really think so. In a standard exp party, I'm usually using 2 skills (Honestly, more like one considering that combat is currently based on combos. I honestly consider Thunder -> Thundara as 'one' skill at this point) If the standard battle was balanced around me having to use, say 5, or 6 skills to succeed, I'd find myself much more stimulated overall

[Hyrist]

I don't really think so. In a standard exp party, I'm usually using 2 skills (Honestly, more like one considering that combat is currently based on combos. I honestly consider Thunder -> Thundara as 'one' skill at this point) If the standard battle was balanced around me having to use, say 5, or 6 skills to succeed, I'd find myself much more stimulated overall

Lost me at "Thunder > Thundara"

You can't use Black Mages as the standard for the whole of the game. Your job simply IS Thunder > Thundara, and that's a flaw of the job design. Even in group battles, I as a Dragoon have a lot I have to handle, particularly if I'm competing against Black Mage's ridiculous damage output due to their collective lack of damage impairment.

Also, you're talking 'XP party' again, field monsters. That's a bad standard to have because you're dealing with conflicting interests. Bulk of players do not want a harder fight to gain XP with, they want a harder fight to have fun with, but then complain that the rewards are too poor for it.

To be completely honest, the concept of an 'XP party' is a dated one. At least in the sense you're trying to describe. Grinding the same monsters over and over again and expecting something other than boring is counterproductive. Ideally what they should do is make group specific Leves or some other sort of dynamic repeatable content that's easy to produce for the party that yields strong rewards. That way, during these group training regimens, they can throw a curve ball on occasion to keep you on your toes and keep you excited about the content.

There's no real group-based Leves currently in the game, and the Leves we have for single player don't quite have enough variance to them within each individual Leve itself. If they met both of these requirements then there really wouldn't be no room for complaints. Not to mention - you'd probably wind up with more players that are raid-ready on the onset of 50.

[Mirage]

Doesn't really matter either way. So what if you get 500 per mob at 2 kills a minute, or 1000 exp per mob at 1 kill a minute? As for common drops, just increase those too. Exp grind will take just as long either case. It's not like the developers haven't got a pre-defined plan for how long the grind is supposed to take.

If the developers want the grind the be longer, they could do it in three different ways already. Increase exp requirements for each new level, decrease exp gain per kill, or make mobs slower to kill. If the dev team wants slower levelups, would it make a difference to us which of these three they increased? I don't think so.

If they want to keep levelup rates to happen as fast as they to today, they would naturally change one of the other two variables whenever they changed one of them, so that the leveling speed stayed the same.

In the end, time spent per mob is an issue of flavor, not character progression mechanics. Would you mind if an exp mob took 5 times as long to kill if they gave you 10 times more exp? No? If not, you're not really against slow kills, you're against low rewards.

[Malix]

I think you need to do the following:

A. Fight mobs that are level appropriate
B. Level up a bit more
C. Roll a Job that's less Bursty

[Luxanna]

more lock inc

[Dragon]

more lock inc

Yeah, the more people respond with off-topic and inflammatory replies, the more likely it'll get closed.

Wow, I'm so surprised no one's noticed that before! [/sarc]