Mechanics to add variety to dungeon mobs

[Leigaon]

This is a great start towards something that could make dungeons more fun / shorter and teach people a thing or two the hard way..

Like someone said though, it would require an overhaul of the dungeons. Which I think we're really past due for a QoL adjustment. Just adjusting the # of mobs, increasing the XP and shortening the paths mixed with this would bring things up a bit.

I'm taking this as a rough draft, though others here see it as its final documentation. This is an idea to expand on.

Taking this idea and putting it in say Sastasha. A lot of the trash mobs up to the first boss can be removed and placed in with something else. Stick with the groups of two and add in one odd-ball to the side. Get them use to Pack members and calling in an occasional 3rd mob.

Thinking of it later, to have a mob turn and attack with a random attack to a player would make you want to use Cover, or low blow or the DPS can stun lock the guy.

[ApprenticeSmithy]

I like these ideas! They'd certainly add new flavour to dungeons. I really like the leader of pack idea. I think that could work great if implemented right!

Throwing in some random ideas here, but maybe have enemies with certain auras emanating from them, like a ice sprite causing frostbite to players around it, or malboros causing poison (they do stink after all XD)

[Musashidon]

I disagree.

you shouldn't just shrug off a portion of the player base just because you don't agree with how they play.
if they are a large enough group you can hurt your player population.

your second point to me is moot, *it may not be fresh but it can still be fun* after the first run the only reason to run a dungeon/raid again is for gear/achievements/mounts the more annoying it becomes the less worth it is to rerun it, variety or not once we have what we want we aren't going to be doing it anymore other then for friends/or some random roulette que in the future.

and point 3 no the golem doesn't hit hard yes he hits with a knockback/stun and then can aoe you and if you position wrong it can kill you but that doesn't change that his first hit was weak then you were standing in a avoidable aoe. which is exactly what i said earlier.

[kikix12]

you shouldn't just shrug off a portion of the player base just because you don't agree with how they play.
if they are a large enough group you can hurt your player population.

Um...I see very many people complaining about dungeons being boring and a chore...and I see very few complaining that the dungeons are too difficult or that they should be simplified. I obviously don't really see people saying that the dungeons are fine the way they are. So which group is the larger?!

Well, communications have such a thing to them that they are more likely to attract naysayers, regardless of what would be posted. The people that would agree with something, reading it written by someone they have no connection with at all, are likely to just nod to themselves and pass. Ask around in a group you are familiar with and suddenly the ratio is likely to be different, because people are more likely to actually answer even if they agree.

So yes. I don't shrug any problem of any part of the community. I merely suggest a solution to a problem that was frequenty brought up on these forums alone.

your second point to me is moot, *it may not be fresh but it can still be fun* after the first run the only reason to run a dungeon/raid again is for gear/achievements/mounts the more annoying it becomes the less worth it is to rerun it, variety or not once we have what we want we aren't going to be doing it anymore other then for friends/or some random roulette que in the future.

And that's perfectly fine. Never did I say otherwise either. But while there is something you need in it, be it experience from the roulette or a faction member wanting help with the queue for it...you do run it. And if you do run it, adding variety will have its intended effect while you do.

What actually makes you annoyed in these suggestions?! That's what I don't get. As I said repeatedly, they in no way affect difficulty in and off themselves, and whether they affect clear time is entirely dependent on how the developers would want to make the dungeon. All they do is make slight variations to gameplay to mix things up a little. Bosses make that A LOT. And you know what?! Bosses are the most enjoyable content for vast majority of the playerbase. I can complain about Titan all I want, but the fact is that even though his instant-kill is annoying, largely cause it prevents revival, really, the necessity to adapt to his actions makes the run way more fun than brain-dead dungeon runs. I can complain about Susano O due to how much damage output he brings to the table in quick succession, but past that, it's more fun of a fight than with yer average "zombie" bosses that are there just to have jacked up health and a bit more AoE's.

and point 3 no the golem doesn't hit hard yes he hits with a knockback/stun and then can aoe you and if you position wrong it can kill you but that doesn't change that his first hit was weak then you were standing in a avoidable aoe. which is exactly what i said earlier.

About or more than half health is weak?! Alright...

In case you didn't notice, EVERYTHING in this game is survivable or avoidable. That's why this is a game. Using the argument that people are likely to survive a golem more often than not is just ridiculous. What matters is that it can kill if there's a lapse of judgement, or just plain bad luck involved. That's how EVERYTHING in RPG games is. Then what are you complaining about?! The very essence of this game being a game, thus having ways to win, and that means that people that know how to win will win regularly?!

[Musashidon]

So which group is the larger?!

the forums isn't the whole population and people don't normally go out of their way to constantly say they like something, like they would when they don't like something.
i am not saying more people like the dungeons how they are i am simply saying it's not as easy as saying welp people are complaining so this will make everyone happy.
you can easily find out more people liked it the old way then new and it be to late to do anything as the damage is done. it's a word of caution.

second, well it is adding difficulty that is the point of mechanics if they don't follow they wipe. you are saying from going from no mechanic other then burn them down to pulling/killing based on monster buffs.

annoyed in the suggestions? i am not annoyed you suggested them i am simply putting in my thoughts on your suggestions since they would affect me and everyone else.


once again you are over thinking the golem, the point is with it being random it is greatly weakened vs if it focused a single target the whole battle. its the exact opposite to titan since he is 100% scripted and you can get his battle pattern down to perfection he hits hard and is way less forgiving. (also he is a primal and meant to be harder)

this is the same to say monsters who wouldn't target your tank ever they would deal less damage due to if they didn't they would easily wipe dps/healers who didn't follow the mechanics making the dungeons harder due to it being easier to wipe.

which leaves me to my beginning statement *it would make people stop running dungeons* the harder it is to beat content as pugs pulls people away from duty finder

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

Um...I see very many people complaining about dungeons being boring and a chore...and I see very few complaining that the dungeons are too difficult or that they should be simplified. I obviously don't really see people saying that the dungeons are fine the way they are. So which group is the larger?!

What you aren't seeing is the group of people that are perfectly content with the dungeons right now. As far as which group is biggest? Only a full-game mandatory survey could tell. I know many friends in-game that enjoy dungeons as the mindless, relaxing, button-mashing fests they are. Even i enjoy coming home from work and relaxing with some casual dungeons before I raid that night.

The biggest problem with your ideas is that you're targeting the content that is most played by the playerbase, which serves as one of, if not the primary dispenser of tomestones, or serve as a means of leveling, used as pieces for the story, or any combination. They need to be accessible to all players, of all skill levels, concentration levels and 99.9% of playstyles. Your ideas (in their current form) are better suited to pre-made party content, like potentially adding "extreme" dungeons that are entirely optional and not tied to any roulette and would require a full party before queuing in.

[Launched]

This just sounds like another version of those ideas to stop big pulls. There's nothing interesting about "focus Wolf Leader or wipe", which is what they all sound like. No thanks.

[Cenerae]

If the goal is to stop people from doing big pulls, but without having to add a wall in between each pull...

Then the dungeons should be shorter (fewer pulls), and the packs themselves should be considerably more threatening than they are now. Right now you can coast through single pulls with barely more healing needed than a fairy or regen in most situations, and with no cooldowns required from the tank. So it shouldn't be a surprise that people want to speed it along to double/triple pulls. Because they can.

If enemies were much stronger then more effort would be required on the whole from the group, and mass pulling becomes too risky unless you massively outgear the dungeon (which can be fixed by implementing an ilvl ceiling). Good groups would probably still be able to double pull perhaps, but with individual enemies being much harder hitting and healthier, trying to AoE burn down multiple groups becomes less feasable for an average DF group.

That would be much easier than trying to add in a bunch of extra mechanics for the sake of it. Save that sort of stuff for potential 'extreme dungeons' or something.

[JunseiKei]

If these changes are supposed to go into expert dungeons that you run for tomestones, forget it. It's done just to get tomes as quickly as possible and be done with it. There's no point in dragging it out any longer than needs be.

As it was, SE already said HW was too complicated. That's why everything has become simpler (and TBH, I'm rather thankful for this because EVERYTHING was a massive endeavor). Crafting was complicated, rotations and upkeeping DPS was complicated, mechanics were complicated, etc. Literally, everything was too complicated in their opinion. Everything became more streamlined (hence why AoE circles were changed, why we have more icons for specific things, why we have job specific HUDs).

[Zojha]

It really reads a lot like those threads trying to curb speedrunning.

The "mechanics" themselves aren't particularly interesting, ignoring aggro means a bit more unavoidable/non-interactive damage going out, which is irrelevant outside of large pulls because healers can easily lolerase it (Heck, you can do dungeons without a tank entirely already!) and a pack bonus is also irrelevant outside of large pulls. You might as well put highly damaging Miasma all over the dungeon that clears bit by bit as you do packs. Or, simply put up a good, ole fashioned wall. All of these things ultimately achieve the same purpose.

Personally, I don't really find that fun. If they were to add more mechanics to dungeons, I'd rather they work with AoEs and safe-zones, tethers, gazes, special platforms and the like.
Though honestly... tank and spank is pretty much the defining gameplay of a trinity game, the epitome of the role setup, so I don't see an issue in keeping dungeons tailored to that either.