Neo ExDeath: Rdm or Smn?

[EvilJoshy]

I'm usually a SMN main. I was bringing that to raid until like 2 weeks ago. I had lvled rdm when we started raiding because everyone was saying "SMN is broken". I was the lowest dps when we started deltascape. My raid group did coil back when that came out so they are understanding. They asked if I wouldn't mind lvling rdm for the sake of progression until SE adjusts SMN. Turns out it was just my opener was all wrong and there were some things I didn't know about. So my SMNs DPS is fine now.
By the time I got rdm to 70 we were already practicing Neo ExDeath. FFlogs said SMNs on average do more dps during that fight than RDM so it felt like it was all for nothing. The gear is mostly the same and we had tomes in abundance because we were killing Halicarnasus and I didn't want all that work to go to waste. Once I got the rdm weapon I started switching out in the first 3 fights. First time I brought RDM to regular ex death we couldn't down him in time. My DPS was the lowest that match so I switched back to SMN so we could practice Neo for that week. I looked up a rdm opener and that fixed everything so i started bringing rdm to neo again.

Last night we killed Neo ExDouchebag. I was using my rdm. It was a perfect run for us. Nobody died and we killed him when he was about half way through his final almegest. Our parser said I did 3825, which is actually good for me. Between rdm and smn the highest I ever got I think was 3900 on os2-3. After downing neo with my rdm I don't feel comfortable trying this next week with my smn now. I still love smn but I feel more relaxed as rdm for a variety of reasons.

RDM:
dual cast+rez for when someone screws up (#@$% happens)
Vercure without dual cast is better than physick. I'll pop 2 cures on myself when were about to eat holy/flares
A gap closer and gap creator. The back flip is very useful for quickly getting out of delta attack at the last moment
Embolden beats devotion PERIOD (Seriously SE, make devotion AoE or something)
Unless I die or have to rez people I never run out of mp on rdm and refresh is always rdy when I need it. I don't even consider running out of mp.
Less button mashing
Not having to worry about a pet whom you can't heal cause SE took away sustain
My melee combo takes about 5 seconds. Easier to squeeze that in between phases
A few off GCD's that are instant and don't require aetherflow.
As RDM I actually can pull hate if I go all out when neo resets hate. Doesn;t happen often but it's one thing SMN doesn't have to worry about.

SMN
More button mashing. I'm looking at you Garuda!
Have to keep pet alive sometimes.
Need more time to do my big dmg rotations. DWT takes about 16 secs of being able to stand still vs rdms 5 secs for melee combo+discount flare-holy and you can be moving while doing this.
Lots of management. Not only keeping aetherflow, dwt, and bahamut on cd. There's also watching rouse, enkindle, aerial slash, devotion, maintaining dots, shadowflare, tri disaster, contagion.
I can run out of mp while using SMN even if I am not rezzing. Sometimes I get too carried away with Ruin 3 but mp management requires attention. RDM mp does not.
Trying to get tri disaster, contagion, addle and such all in sync for when I smn bahamut.
Death as a SMN is a big dps loss.
Swift Cast is a 1 min cd. Rdm has dual cast along with swift. (For anyone asking why have swift cast on rdm, it's for when I have to move to avoid flood of naught and still want to dmg when fleche and contra six are on cd)
Your party buff, Devotion, is a good buff but it only hits 1 person and it's a 5% dmg done, dmg taken reduced, healing done. Embolden is 10% dmg dealt for everyone and wears off slowly.
Devotion goes to the closest person near your pet.
Our setup is pld, war, whm, ast, sam, blm, brd, smn/rdm. Contagion only benefits casters. Embolden benefits ALL.
Bahamut is clunky and requires several off GCDs to get the most dmg from him. Those said off GCDs could be used for other things. Example, addle the grand cross omega or almegest.


In conclusion. I haven't kept track of my numbers but I actually do more dmg as my SMN but it leaves more room for error and requires more effort and it's not that much more dps than my RDM. I love smn still but I am finding rdm to be less work for the same gain. Sometimes more gain. I know my static sam enjoys embolden over devotion. When is SE going to adjust some of our many issues?

[Phoenicia]

The short answer play the one you enjoy more. But for the long answer:

While Devotion is a nice buff that has issues (targeting and single target), it's not the only "raid buff" SMN brings. Contagion buffs you, the BLM, both healers, and PLD's Holy Spirit + Requisat burst which is also a 1 minute CD. It's also almost three times stronger than Embolden (2.5% DPS increase over the fight as opposed to 1%). It may buff less people it may net the same if not more DPS increase in your setup. There is also Radiant Shield which is coming up in the next point.

Unless your BLM is the top DPS in the group by far, you should try and use Ifrit instead of Garuda, YOUR DPS will be higher because Ifrit > Garuda. Sadly Neo doesn't give good reflect windows since he never auto attacks, but on every other fight Ifrit's Radiant Shield is almost the same physical DPS increase as Embolden (accounting for the reflects). Radiant Shield's reflected damage is considered your contribution on parsers. And the best of it all, you can just leave Ifrit on Sic. You know... He attac, he reflec, and more importantly, he makes you relac.

You can check this sheet for raid buffs, their values, collective raid DPS increase and best timings to use them.

Raise is a massive DPS loss to both SMN and RDM. You trade 404.5 potency as RDM when you replace thunder/aero with a raise (counting the 11 mana lost as a delay to your melee combo). The 3.6k MP spent on raise means 3 Ruin 3s replaced by Ruin 1 and the GCD itself being a raise instead of Ruin, that's 450 potency loss. A caster doing raise should be a last resort if you consider the opportunity costs. If you consider raise replaces DPS spells on healers instead of heals, the trade off is 220 (AST),230 (SCH) and 250 (WHM) with no costs on gauges or delays for CDs.

SMN does do a lot of DPS. On FFlogs they are second to fourth top DPS (depending on fight and percentile) which is VERY good.

Dying hurts all classes, if you're a RDM that died as soon as you got 80/80 mana you got screwed hard specially if your CDs were about to be or were just used. While not as bad as SMN since whatever little MP you get raised with is used just on resummoning the pet and barely reapplying your DoTs, but all calsses suffer the same "gauage reset and CD misalignment".

Swiftcast is a valid point, it should always be on CD regardless of caster job as there are too many opportunities to use it at instead of keeping it for a raise. Btw, you should add "Squeezing another aero/thunder during burst windows like Trick Attack" though in your setup that's not something to worry about too much.

Both classes have ups and downs. And as for your own numbers, those can always be improved upon. No matter which class you choose as long as you enjoy the one you end up picking.

I'm sorry I can't help you directly with your decision by telling you which is absolutely better as neither is, but I hope the points I gave give insight in picking the job you will enjoy playing more. The points I skipped are either things I agree with you on or don't have input for it. For example difficulty of usage, RDM is a lot easier than SMN but once you practiced enough that won't matter.

Best of luck!
~ Phoenicia ~

[EvilJoshy]

Speaking of Ifrit I just had an idea. When Neo Exdeath starts pounding the platform over and over again before enrage. Does that proc radiant shield? He does this for like a full min. If it does the melee dps would love SMN /kefka laugh

[Sunako]

Speaking of Ifrit I just had an idea. When Neo Exdeath starts pounding the platform over and over again before enrage. Does that proc radiant shield? He does this for like a full min. If it does the melee dps would love SMN /kefka laugh

No it does not work for that. Radiant shield in general is pretty poor in neo because boss have no auto attack. It is lot stronger in v1 - 3. Ifrit still do more than garuda. Only time garuda is worth use if you play with multiple casters, otherwise ifrit is always better(in raid content).

[EvilJoshy]

ty. Im RR I always used garuda in raid. In HW I didn't raid much but I tried switching up. Still stuck with garuda. Now in SB, I would like to use ifrit more but I've been drilling the rotations from https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...d3LQBPy1E/edit so I have been reluctant to switch out ifrit. At least now in SB I feel like there is actual cause to use either pet depending on the party composition.

[Phoenicia]

Eirene Snow's guide is a really good one. The rotation is slightly outdated now. But those changes are minor, it's basically pot timing and switching Enkindle with Devotion when using Ifrit instead of Garuda. Otherwise the rotation is roughly the same. The biggest difference is that you let Ifrit on Sic unless you need to time Radiant Shield. You have nothing in your basic rotation to align with Devotion so it is a lot easier.

[EvilJoshy]

I started using ifrit on os1-3 tonight. My top dps was like 3900 "before" when I was still using garuda. Im doing 4000-4200 now with ifrit :P