Questions abour RDM rotations. (Aoe and single target)

[JunseiKei]

I have a hard time knowing what to do when I got 2 procs and the one type keeps procing so I keep using one (Because of duel cast) Do I just eat not having a duel cast when I keep getting lucky and swift cast the other element?

For having multiple procs at once, if you can cast the same type of magic without being 30 above another, it's fine to double up. IE: Verstone Ready and Verfire Ready; casting Verstone ready into Veraero, then using Verfire Ready into Verthunder is OK. If you would end up 30 over another mana type, then you don't want to do that as you'll gain the lesser of the mana types slower.

For Aoe rotations, do I just spam scatter? or do I scatter > element to try get to 30/30 faster and thus 40 ish -50 to use manafication for enchanted moulinet? It just feels odd I am just here to spam one button for AoE

Copy and pasting a response I made to another thread.

Forgive me for butting in.

Generally speaking, just spamming Scatter is enough. While you get the same potency using Scatter and VerAero/VerThunder, you'll spend more overall time on the mobs alternating between single target and AoE spells. Using VerHoly and VerFlare is a DPS loss compared to Enchanted Moulinet (550 versus 200(*). You switch to AoE rotation at 3 targets for RDM, so that'd make the potency 600). You might gain white and black magic faster using scatter into single target, but you gain time on targets.

From how I understood it when I thought about what you were advised and assuming gauge is at 0:
Scatter + scatter = 600 potency + 6 white AND black mana (discounting 25% proc)
Scatter+ VerAero/Thunder = 600 potency + 3 white AND black + 11 to white OR black
Enchanted Moulinet at 30/30 mana.
Double scatter would take 5 GCDs. Scatter + single target takes 4 GCDs because of needing both mana at 30.
Using your procs, Verstone or Verfire, results in a DPS loss of 30 and only a mana gain of 3 over double scatter.
Accounting for Enhanced Scatter, you can gain enough mana for Moulinet anywhere between 3 GCDs or 5 GCDs. Yay for RNG~

With me, I keep the enmity/enemy list open so I can always see each add's HP levels. As soon as I see the 3 final mobs down to low levels, I start doing single target and will hold off using Moulinet, even if I'm already at 3x/3x.

Like I said above, you can scatter and go back into a single target spell as you won't lose potency with just 3 targets. You will have a potency loss with more. The mana type gains from using scatter and a ver are minimal, if not outright inefficient, when you begin to factor time (a resource people often disregard) and the amount of targets present.

[Snow_Princess]

Thanks for the help but I think people are misunderstanding me on one specific case.

I have Manafication ready, but on something over a group of 3, so I scatter first, now people said thunder or aero correct? so if it procs, why wouldn't I do scatter > stone > scatter > thunder? (starting at 0/0)
This means I would be hard casting scatter, then insta cast stone to use the proc, insted of aero, since people made it clear hard casting stone is useless.

[Rawrz]

Thanks for the help but I think people are misunderstanding me on one specific case.

I have Manafication ready, but on something over a group of 3, so I scatter first, now people said thunder or aero correct? so if it procs, why wouldn't I do scatter > stone > scatter > thunder?
This means I would be hard casting scatter, then insta cast stone to use the proc, insted of aero, since people made it clear hard casting stone is useless.

You keep misunderstanding every piece of advice given to you. Slow down and think about this with me.

On Black mage, getting a proc after casting Fire, causes a free and instant cast Fire III. At 50, this proc took immediate priority, since it costs you 0 MP and does more damage than Fire 1.

On RDM, a proc is nothing more than an ENHANCED jolt. It just replaced jolt as part of your filler spell. Jolts purpose, just like Verstone,Veraero and impact is to have a short cast time to proc the effect of Dual cast.

Veraero and Verthunder have a 5 second cast time, so hard casting them while in combat means that you spend TWO whole gcds on them. At 300 potency, thats like using two 150 potency skills at a 2.5 GCD. Dual cast, removes the cast time, making them instant cast, so they only consume 1 GCD. The damage goes from 150 potency a GCD to 300! 300 potency + 11 mana gain will always be better than 270 potency and 9 mana gain.

So again, the procs are there for single target (when 2 or less mobs,) so that you can use them to dual cast VerAero/VerThunder to quickly get to spending your gauge once its high enough.

and AGAIn for the AOE. Its alternate between Scatter -> Veraero/Verthunder ONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNLLLLLLLLLLLY at 3 mobs. At 4 mobs its scatter spam.

Hope this helps!

[Snow_Princess]

You keep misunderstanding every piece of advice given to you. Slow down and think about this with me.On Black mage, getting a proc after casting Fire, causes a free and instant cast Fire III. At 50, this proc took immediate priority, since it costs you 0 MP and does more damage than Fire 1.

On RDM, a proc is nothing more than an ENHANCED jolt. It just replaced jolt as part of your filler spell. Jolts purpose, just like Verstone,Veraero and impact is to have a short cast time to proc the effect of Dual cast.

Veraero and Verthunder have a 5 second cast time, so hard casting them while in combat means that you spend TWO whole gcds on them. At 300 potency, thats like using two 150 potency skills at a 2.5 GCD. Dual cast, removes the cast time, making them instant cast, so they only consume 1 GCD. The damage goes from 150 potency a GCD to 300! 300 potency + 11 mana gain will always be better than 270 potency and 9 mana gain.

So again, the procs are there for single target (when 2 or less mobs,) so that you can use them to dual cast VerAero/VerThunder to quickly get to spending your gauge once its high enough.

and AGAIn for the AOE. Its alternate between Scatter -> Veraero/Verthunder ONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNLLLLLLLLLLLY at 3 mobs. At 4 mobs its scatter spam.

Hope this helps!

I did not suggest hard casting a 5 second spell. I asked, starting with 0/0 with Manafication, what do you do to get close or on 50/50? it was said you do scatter > thunder and scatter > thunder.

So I asked what if you proc?
Scatter > duel cast > instant cast thunder > scatter > duel cast > instant cast fire

Why would you not do this? how to play BLM does not adress this, and talking about hard casting 5 second spell does not address this or explain what I am asking. I am still confused, I do not get why this is so hard to understand what I am asking.

Also does having manafication ready change the rule of scatter spam on 4+ mobs?

[Rawrz]

I did not suggest hard casting a 5 second spell. I asked, starting with 0/0 with Manafication, what do you do to get close or on 50/50? it was said you do scatter > thunder and scatter > thunder.

So I asked what if you proc?
Scatter > duel cast > instant cast thunder > scatter > duel cast > instant cast fire

Why would you not do this? how to play BLM does not adress this, and talking about hard casting 5 second spell does not address this or explain what I am asking. I am still confused, I do not get why this is so hard to understand what I am asking.

Im trying to tell you that, verfire is a DPS LOSS when you have dual cast! 300 potency from VERTHUNDER will always be better than 270 Potency from VERFIRE. I used BLM as an example because you seem to think "PROC MEANS IT DOES MORE DAMAGE ALWAYS." Verfire and Verstone are spells you hardcast to make your LONNGGGG spells instant and fit within a GCD.

Its hard to understand how you do not get that verstone, verfire, impact and jolt are all spells you ONLY hardcast to gain dualcast so that you can use your Verthunder/Veraero instantly, when its been said many times, by many posters, so im just confused how you keep putting verstone or fire in the dual casted part. It is weaker than its long casted counterparts. Its the core mechanic of RDM. Short spells make long spells short!

Scatter spam doesn't change anything. If you have manafiction, get to 15, 30 or 45 to get 1, 2 or 3 moulinets from doubling to 30, 60 and 90 mana.

[Tigore]

In the case scenario of 3 enemies, you don't use Verfire or Verstone. If the 3 enemies do live longer than the 30 second procs, let them time out.

What we are trying to say is Verfire and Verstone are meant to be hard casted for 1 - 2 targets. They are indeed better "Jolt" casts as Rawrz puts it, but they will never replace Veraero or Verthunder to use for the instant cast proc. Veraero / Verthunder both offer more damage and more mana gains for the instant cast.

It's not to say having both Verfire and Verstone procs get wasted when 1 of the 3 enemies suddenly dies. For that situation, do as JunseiKei suggested with Verfire > Verthunder then Verstone > Veraero or vice versa depending on your mana bar meters. It will be a 20 jump in one mana meter to take note of doing these dual casts.

[ChaoticCrimson]

When it comes down to it, the point is that in a three mob situation you always go Scatter > Verthunder/aero because Verfire/stone are not only weaker than their counterparts but also generate less mana. In an aoe situation, you don't need to care about the procs for this very reason. Their sole benefit is more mana generation in a single-target situation. I'm seeing a lot of people saying 4+ mobs should be Scatter spam/E. Moulinet accordingly, which is actually advice I hadn't seen before. I'll keep that in mind too.

[Snow_Princess]

Im trying to tell you that, verfire is a DPS LOSS when you have dual cast! 300 potency from VERTHUNDER will always be better than 270 Potency from VERFIRE. I used BLM as an example because you seem to think "PROC MEANS IT DOES MORE DAMAGE ALWAYS." Verfireand Verstone are spells you hardcast to make your LONNGGGG spells instant and fit within a GCD.

Its hard to understand how you do not get that verstone, verfire, impact and jolt are all spells you ONLY hardcast to gain dualcast so that you can use your Verthunder/Veraero instantly, when its been said many times, by many posters, so im just confused how you keep putting verstone or fire in the dual casted part. It is weaker than its long casted counterparts. Its the core mechanic of RDM. Short spells make long spells short!

Scatter spam doesn't change anything. If you have manafiction, get to 15, 30 or 45 to get 1, 2 or 3 moulinets from doubling to 30, 60 and 90 mana.

Now that you said it that way, it makes sense, though I was not asking if "Scatter spam doesn't change anything" I was asking if you use duel cast on aero/ thunder from scatter to build mana faster, esp when you have manafiction, even with 4 +

[Tigore]

For your latest question Snow Princess, your statement on using Veraero / Verthunder on AoE only applies with 3 enemies. Once you hit 4+ enemies, you are doing 400+ potency with Scatter compared to a fixed 300 potency on a single enemy. The mana gains may be more unreliable sometimes being 3/3 or 8/8 depending on Scatter procs, but our job as DPS is still to offer the most damage for the group.

[Snow_Princess]

For your latest question Snow Princess, your statement on using Veraero / Verthunder on AoE only applies with 3 enemies. Once you hit 4+ enemies, you are doing 400+ potency with Scatter compared to a fixed 300 potency on a single enemy. The mana gains may be more unreliable sometimes being 3/3 or 8/8 depending on Scatter procs, but our job as DPS is still to offer the most damage for the group.

I know this, but there is a bigger picture I am trying to ask, if manafiction is ready, meaning the goal is to use it as quickly as possible so you can use 3 enchanted moulinet as quickly as possible, esp on your first pull, would it be an overall DPS gain to get to 45/45 asap using 2 thunder and 2 aero inbetween scatter casts to use manafication quicker ? that means its ready sooner for the next time, then delaying it spamming scatter.