Questions abour RDM rotations. (Aoe and single target)

[Snow_Princess]

You keep misunderstanding every piece of advice given to you. Slow down and think about this with me.On Black mage, getting a proc after casting Fire, causes a free and instant cast Fire III. At 50, this proc took immediate priority, since it costs you 0 MP and does more damage than Fire 1.

On RDM, a proc is nothing more than an ENHANCED jolt. It just replaced jolt as part of your filler spell. Jolts purpose, just like Verstone,Veraero and impact is to have a short cast time to proc the effect of Dual cast.

Veraero and Verthunder have a 5 second cast time, so hard casting them while in combat means that you spend TWO whole gcds on them. At 300 potency, thats like using two 150 potency skills at a 2.5 GCD. Dual cast, removes the cast time, making them instant cast, so they only consume 1 GCD. The damage goes from 150 potency a GCD to 300! 300 potency + 11 mana gain will always be better than 270 potency and 9 mana gain.

So again, the procs are there for single target (when 2 or less mobs,) so that you can use them to dual cast VerAero/VerThunder to quickly get to spending your gauge once its high enough.

and AGAIn for the AOE. Its alternate between Scatter -> Veraero/Verthunder ONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNLLLLLLLLLLLY at 3 mobs. At 4 mobs its scatter spam.

Hope this helps!

I did not suggest hard casting a 5 second spell. I asked, starting with 0/0 with Manafication, what do you do to get close or on 50/50? it was said you do scatter > thunder and scatter > thunder.

So I asked what if you proc?
Scatter > duel cast > instant cast thunder > scatter > duel cast > instant cast fire

Why would you not do this? how to play BLM does not adress this, and talking about hard casting 5 second spell does not address this or explain what I am asking. I am still confused, I do not get why this is so hard to understand what I am asking.

Also does having manafication ready change the rule of scatter spam on 4+ mobs?

[Rawrz]

I did not suggest hard casting a 5 second spell. I asked, starting with 0/0 with Manafication, what do you do to get close or on 50/50? it was said you do scatter > thunder and scatter > thunder.

So I asked what if you proc?
Scatter > duel cast > instant cast thunder > scatter > duel cast > instant cast fire

Why would you not do this? how to play BLM does not adress this, and talking about hard casting 5 second spell does not address this or explain what I am asking. I am still confused, I do not get why this is so hard to understand what I am asking.

Im trying to tell you that, verfire is a DPS LOSS when you have dual cast! 300 potency from VERTHUNDER will always be better than 270 Potency from VERFIRE. I used BLM as an example because you seem to think "PROC MEANS IT DOES MORE DAMAGE ALWAYS." Verfire and Verstone are spells you hardcast to make your LONNGGGG spells instant and fit within a GCD.

Its hard to understand how you do not get that verstone, verfire, impact and jolt are all spells you ONLY hardcast to gain dualcast so that you can use your Verthunder/Veraero instantly, when its been said many times, by many posters, so im just confused how you keep putting verstone or fire in the dual casted part. It is weaker than its long casted counterparts. Its the core mechanic of RDM. Short spells make long spells short!

Scatter spam doesn't change anything. If you have manafiction, get to 15, 30 or 45 to get 1, 2 or 3 moulinets from doubling to 30, 60 and 90 mana.

[Snow_Princess]

Im trying to tell you that, verfire is a DPS LOSS when you have dual cast! 300 potency from VERTHUNDER will always be better than 270 Potency from VERFIRE. I used BLM as an example because you seem to think "PROC MEANS IT DOES MORE DAMAGE ALWAYS." Verfireand Verstone are spells you hardcast to make your LONNGGGG spells instant and fit within a GCD.

Its hard to understand how you do not get that verstone, verfire, impact and jolt are all spells you ONLY hardcast to gain dualcast so that you can use your Verthunder/Veraero instantly, when its been said many times, by many posters, so im just confused how you keep putting verstone or fire in the dual casted part. It is weaker than its long casted counterparts. Its the core mechanic of RDM. Short spells make long spells short!

Scatter spam doesn't change anything. If you have manafiction, get to 15, 30 or 45 to get 1, 2 or 3 moulinets from doubling to 30, 60 and 90 mana.

Now that you said it that way, it makes sense, though I was not asking if "Scatter spam doesn't change anything" I was asking if you use duel cast on aero/ thunder from scatter to build mana faster, esp when you have manafiction, even with 4 +

[Tigore]

In the case scenario of 3 enemies, you don't use Verfire or Verstone. If the 3 enemies do live longer than the 30 second procs, let them time out.

What we are trying to say is Verfire and Verstone are meant to be hard casted for 1 - 2 targets. They are indeed better "Jolt" casts as Rawrz puts it, but they will never replace Veraero or Verthunder to use for the instant cast proc. Veraero / Verthunder both offer more damage and more mana gains for the instant cast.

It's not to say having both Verfire and Verstone procs get wasted when 1 of the 3 enemies suddenly dies. For that situation, do as JunseiKei suggested with Verfire > Verthunder then Verstone > Veraero or vice versa depending on your mana bar meters. It will be a 20 jump in one mana meter to take note of doing these dual casts.

[ChaoticCrimson]

When it comes down to it, the point is that in a three mob situation you always go Scatter > Verthunder/aero because Verfire/stone are not only weaker than their counterparts but also generate less mana. In an aoe situation, you don't need to care about the procs for this very reason. Their sole benefit is more mana generation in a single-target situation. I'm seeing a lot of people saying 4+ mobs should be Scatter spam/E. Moulinet accordingly, which is actually advice I hadn't seen before. I'll keep that in mind too.

[Tigore]

For your latest question Snow Princess, your statement on using Veraero / Verthunder on AoE only applies with 3 enemies. Once you hit 4+ enemies, you are doing 400+ potency with Scatter compared to a fixed 300 potency on a single enemy. The mana gains may be more unreliable sometimes being 3/3 or 8/8 depending on Scatter procs, but our job as DPS is still to offer the most damage for the group.

[Snow_Princess]

For your latest question Snow Princess, your statement on using Veraero / Verthunder on AoE only applies with 3 enemies. Once you hit 4+ enemies, you are doing 400+ potency with Scatter compared to a fixed 300 potency on a single enemy. The mana gains may be more unreliable sometimes being 3/3 or 8/8 depending on Scatter procs, but our job as DPS is still to offer the most damage for the group.

I know this, but there is a bigger picture I am trying to ask, if manafiction is ready, meaning the goal is to use it as quickly as possible so you can use 3 enchanted moulinet as quickly as possible, esp on your first pull, would it be an overall DPS gain to get to 45/45 asap using 2 thunder and 2 aero inbetween scatter casts to use manafication quicker ? that means its ready sooner for the next time, then delaying it spamming scatter.

[alimdia]

I haven't done the math yet, but in a pull of 6 enemies scatter does 600 potency, thunder/aero do 300, depending on how many gcds it takes to get to 45/45 you could end up losing more damage than you'd gain trying to rush moulinet.

EDIT: this would be it



Due to scatter 25% chance to proc, the proc is 16 mana (8+8) compared to thunder/aero 11, so on average it would only take 1 gcd more with scatter alone to reach 45+ of each mana, and the dps loss of using a single target spell for aoes is not covered by having moulinet 1 gcd early, and note that moulinet 1 gcd early means wasted dual cast after scatter, so better to use that dualcast on another scatter, which ends up being the exact amount of gcds but a noticeable dps loss.

The gap gets narrower at lower than 6 enemies, and deeper at higher than 6.

EDIT 2: I missed something, you don't have to do that last verthunder, so you can get to moulinet 2 gcds early, but the potency cost is still higher than the gain



Assuming you use scatter on your two gained gcds, you'd come out at 9600 potency vs 10800 on average.

The table on the left can go higher or lower than that since scatter proc is RNG, which means with good rng you can get to 45/45 as early, if not earlier than your proposed rotation.

[Snow_Princess]

I haven't done the math yet, but in a pull of 6 enemies scatter does 600 potency, thunder/aero do 300, depending on how many gcds it takes to get to 45/45 you could end up losing more damage than you'd gain trying to rush moulinet.
EDIT: this would be it



Due to scatter 25% chance to proc, the proc is 16 mana (8+8) compared to thunder/aero 11, so on average it would only take 1 gcd more with scatter alone to reach 45+ of each mana, and the dps loss of using a single target spell for aoes is not covered by having moulinet 1 gcd early, and note that moulinet 1 gcd early means wasted dual cast after scatter, so better to use that dualcast on another scatter, which ends up being the exact amount of gcds but a noticeable dps loss.

The gap gets narrower at lower than 6 enemies, and deeper at higher than 6.

EDIT 2: I missed something, you don't have to do that last verthunder, so you can get to moulinet 2 gcds early, but the potency cost is still higher than the gain



Assuming you use scatter on your two gained gcds, you'd come out at 9600 potency vs 10800 on average.

The table on the left can go higher or lower than that since scatter proc is RNG, which means with good rng you can get to 45/45 as early, if not earlier than your proposed rotation.

So 5 or less you rush manafication? and ya your edit 2, i was going to say you don't release that 3rd thunder.

then 3 is when you always use thunder/ aero apparently.

2 is single target rotation on 1?

[alimdia]

I checked 4-5 targets, still a small potency loss to rush manafication, checked at 8 targets and its a huge potency loss, so it seems like there's no scenario where (on average) you'd gain from using thunder/aero at 4+ enemies.

And yeah 3 is scatter -> thunder/aero, 2 and 1 is single target.