When dps dont aoe should they just get kicked from the start?

[bswpayton]

[QUOTE=bswpayton;4409422]That's y tanks have df cool downs in many situations those big adds with lots of up don't have to be taken out first. U can take out the small adds first then burst the larger one's down. For example in the level 69 dungeon I pull all the adds prior to the pack before u go outside, if u don't aoe there either the healer will be low on mana or the tank will be out of cool downs. U can't just pic one to burst down [ /QUOTE]

[TouchandFeel]

To me it all comes down to whether or not people are trying.

If you are new, learning, etc. and are struggling a bit but are trying, then I will stick with you the whole way and run out the timer doing my best to help you succeed both in the content and in learning and improving.

If you just don't want to bother even trying, well then I don't want you in my group. Expecting to just have the other members of the group accept dragging your dead weight through content is incredibly disrespectful to the other players and their time. I am not your dungeon chauffeur. You know what I do when I don't really feel up to running something and I know I would just half-ass it if I did? I don't queue for it.

Also, slacking off in this manner makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me. You end up making things more difficult for yourself, and everyone else, by causing more screw-ups and making things take longer by actively not trying than just putting in a modicum of effort and making things go so much faster and smoother. It just results in more overall effort spread out over a greater period of time because you wanted to try to force putting in less effort at any one moment.

As to the initial question posed at the beginning of the thread.
I would say mention it in a polite and respectful manner. If they respond rudely or state that they just don't care to bother trying, then go ahead and initiate a vote kick.

Taking advantage of AoE attacks for large groups of enemies should be DPS 101 as well as the conclusion of basic arithmetic and common sense, rare special case scenarios being the exception.

[ilea]

If you just don't want to bother even trying, well then I don't want you in my group.

I'm coming to agree with this mindset. Sometimes, people are new. Sometimes, they've had a long day, and they don't have the energy to put out amazing 100%tile DPS. And that's fine! But in any role in a dungeon, you can very easily feel the effort people are putting forth.

I think threads like this come from a place of frustration that many of us less-new players can share. Communication is important, but it gets to be tiring. I don't enjoy asking DPS at level 69 to use their AoE, or tanks to use CDs, or healers to not stand behind the tank.

I would really, really like them to add a Hall of the Novice II, introducing more mechanics like "use your AoE!" or "use your regens to help with healing!"

[Niwashi]

If a tank is making big pulls and a DPS is single targeting on them, that's a lack of coordination between both players. It's as much the tank's responsibility to adjust pull sizes to suit the DPS's actions as it is the DPS's responsibility to adjust skill rotation to suit the tank's actions. If you're going to kick one of them for failing to coordinate that, then you should be kicking both, as they're equally at fault. The only exception would be dungeons where individual packs have lots of mobs and it's impossible to pull any smaller.

If you just don't want to bother even trying, well then I don't want you in my group.

If you don't want to be grouped with someone, that's your prerogative. But that's what the "Leave" feature is for. It's NOT what the "Kick" feature is for.

[TouchandFeel]

If you don't want to be grouped with someone, that's your prerogative. But that's what the "Leave" feature is for. It's NOT what the "Kick" feature is for.

If multiple people in the group don't want the person that is not trying, that is precisely what vote kick is for. If it was just me and the rest of the group disagreed, then the vote kick would not go through and I would either accept the will of the group and just keep going or I would decide to leave.
It's a vote put forth that requires the agreement from a majority to go into action, unlike one person deciding that they want to not put in any effort and have everyone else pick up their slack.

Besides, as I said in the post that you selectively quoted from, I believe in communicating first and then if they respond rudely or tell you they don't care and everyone should just deal, then a vote kick may be warranted.

Above all else I believe in the good of the party over any one individual's self-focused desires. If that means sticking with a group that isn't very good but are trying and want to improve even when I know I could get a much faster and easier run with a better group, I will stay and do what I can to help. That also means not sitting idle when one person selfishly drags the group as a whole down because they just don't care.

We were put together as a group and should work together as a group for the good of the group. It is as simple as that.

[Niwashi]

If multiple people in the group don't want the person that is not trying, that is precisely what vote kick is for.

No, it's not. The vote kick feature is there to get rid of trolls who are harassing you, or players who are AFK or lost their connection to the game. It's not there to get rid of players you (or even your whole group) don't want to play with. The voting aspect is just a way to confirm that the harassment is taking place, by having multiple people corroborate that claim, since it's a hard thing for software to verify without human input.

Unfortunately, the GMs decided they didn't want to police kick abuse, so they announced that they'll never punish anyone for kicking a player even without a valid reason for it. But "you won't get punished for it" is very different than "that's what it's for". If we were discussing whether you can get away with kicking someone just for not using AoE (or otherwise not playing up to their potential), then yes, you can get away with it. It's the same way you can get away with kicking someone for wearing blue if you prefer red. That, too, would be a case where they're not playing the way you want.

Far too many players have taken the GMs' decision to allow any and all kicks without repercussions as though that meant it's what vote kick is for — to get rid of anyone they don't like. They'll corroborate claims of harassment or being AFK even when it's clear neither is true, just because it's a way to get rid of someone.

There are only four VALID reasons for initiating or agreeing to a Vote Kick, and SE points them out every time it comes up. Here they are:

• AFK
• Offline
• Harrassment
• Cheating

If something is not in that list, then it's not what vote kick is for. Sticking with just single target attack combos is not in that list.

as I said in the post that you selectively quoted from, I believe in communicating first

I apologize for the selective quoting. I actually do respect the fact that you try communicating and helping those who will accept help. Too many don't.

I quoted from you just because you stated the "don't want you in my group" reason more succinctly than many others who have expressed the same idea (some of them advocating it earlier, even without the communication attempts you try first), and it's that general sentiment I was arguing about.

and then if they respond rudely or tell you they don't care and everyone should just deal, then a vote kick may be warranted.

If they're rude enough about it that you consider it harassment, then that can be a valid reason for vote kicking someone. But the lack of AoE on its own isn't.

[TouchandFeel]

snip

All the reasons you listed for why someone may wantonly attempt to kick another player are separate from what I explicitly stated is the factor I take into account, whether or not they are even bothering to try. Even the statement you quoted explicitly says "the person that is not trying".

There are many subjective and potentially selfish reasons that I may not want a person in my group, such as I hate their glamour or I think they have a stupid name. While such may result in an eyeroll from me, it is never something I would ever consider fair game for a vote kick.

As you stated, harassment is a valid reason for a vote kick. When someone chooses to make things more difficult for others and to make the group's shared playtime less enjoyable, whether verbally or through their actions, or inaction in the case of not trying, I consider that harassment. Cussing someone out and intentionally wasting someone's time are both disrespectful.

It is also very obvious when someone isn't trying, but believing that people should be given the benefit of the doubt and to not assume immediate guilt, I always try to communicate first as I stated. How they respond makes it quite clear whether or not they are trying. A person that is trying will listen, ask questions or try to work with the team. A person that isn't trying tends to just gets belligerent or tells you to bugger off.

Really it's less about x player not playing y way and more about selfish jerks being selfish jerks and not giving a flying moogle turd about their effect on the group.

Vote kicking should pretty much never be the first option, but people should be held accountable for bad behaviour which includes choosing to make the group's run more difficult by not putting in any effort.

[Rokke]

If we're in a sub 50 story mode dungeon, I would tell them to AoE. At this point in the game a person might not have their full rotation and/or still might be learning. Thats expected.

If we're in a dungeon over 60, they will be kicked by the 2nd room. I don't expect people to play at savage level in Xelphatol, but if tank pulls wall to wall and I'm doing my job and your job, my vote is that its back to queue for you.

[Paladinleeds]

If we're in a dungeon over 60, they will be kicked by the 2nd room. I don't expect people to play at savage level in Xelphatol, but if tank pulls wall to wall and I'm doing my job and your job, my vote is that its back to queue for you.

Here's where I throw that claim out of the room: Jump potions. Even at 60+, they may have bought the story skip and level skip potions. As this point they're thrown in brand new, possibly their first MMO, with no idea what to do.

My stance is, I'll try and teach and guide (I take my mentor role seriously), no matter the level. Now, if they start telling me "You don't pay my sub" or worse, and become hostile, then you bet I'm initiating a vote kick. If someone isn't feeling 100% (I tend to go DPS when I can't handle the stresses of healing/tanking at that time), that's OK. New? No problem. Fatfingering like crazy because you've got a new mouse you're not used to? I feel you, been there myself. So long as you're not rude, I'm not likely to kick.

[Rokke]

Here's where I throw that claim out of the room: Jump potions. Even at 60+, they may have bought the story skip and level skip potions. As this point they're thrown in brand new, possibly their first MMO, with no idea what to do.

And I will still initiate a vote kick because I don't want to spend time carrying deadweights. If the majority feels the same way, it'll go through. If they don't, it wont. It works out pretty fair I think.