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  1. #1
    Player
    Deceptus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    The Goblet - 16th Ward, Plot 55
    Posts
    4,418
    Character
    Deceptus Keelon
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90

    Why are Melee and ranged DPS roles mostly support and not focused on damage?

    Why does it seem like melee and ranged magic DPS roles are lacking?

    Tank role abilities decrease damage, increase healing, manage aggro etc.

    Heal role abilities increase healing, allow for swift cast, sure they have some terrible abilities in Break and Cleric Stance only being 5%.

    Bards and Machinist roles make sense. They've always been support and the roles reflect that accordingly.

    However Ranged Magic has absolutely nothing that increases their damage, and neither do melee dps. These "Role Abilities" don't fit their role at all.

    Crutch and Arms length are probably barely ever used. Feint's CD is way too much for a 10s ability.

    Break is useless for ranged, as is Drain (it doesn't heal enough). Erase doesn't work on enfeebles, just dots. Addle is as bad as Feint for the same reasons. Apocatastasis is tough to time, because you never really know what attacks are physical or magic even if something looks like and appears to be magic.

    A basic aoe move would help for melee dps when you're synced down and don't have any aoe at all (DRG don't get their spammable until level 40 and ninja don't until 42)
    (5)
    Last edited by Deceptus; 09-20-2017 at 06:58 AM. Reason: char limit

  2. #2
    Player
    Silver-Strider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,753
    Character
    Silver Strider
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Idk about you but I rather like Feint, Addle, Apocatastasis and Erase in general; just need their CD to be slightly shorter is all.

    Break, Drain, Arm length, and Clutch though are really, REALLY bad and need to be replaced entirely. Replace drain with a Second Wind effect for casters. Break can just be flat out removed for a spammmable AoE like Blizzard 2 was, with an equivalent skill for Melee as well to replace either Arm or Clutch and those 2 should just be condensed into a single skill.
    (0)

  3. #3
    Player
    Wintersandman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    1,190
    Character
    Winter Sandman
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Silver-Strider View Post
    Replace drain with a Second Wind effect for casters.
    I really like Drain as RDM. Dual Casting Drain before Veracure is nice and i use it frequently for the Yokai Event but i see it going by the wayside once I am done farming medals.
    (0)

  4. #4
    Player
    Connor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    2,166
    Character
    Connor Whelan
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 100
    I don\\'t play melee so I can\\'t comment on them.

    However, I feel like for casters this issue arises from the fact that the role skill abilities they have don\\'t often fit with the job.
    For example, Apocatastasis and Addle don\\'t feel out of place at all as a Summoner or Red Mage. But on a Black Mage, not so much. The same goes for Drain.
    For a Red Mage who has Vercure, or a Summoner who has a tank pet and Physick, it feels very out-of-place.
    As a Black Mage with no other means of recovering your own HP, though, it may feel indispensable in solo content (despite healing too little to be worthwhile).


    And of course, as with all role skill pools, there are some abilities that are functionally useless, for casters Break is the biggest offender, as is Drain due to the low potency and healing it offers (for comparison, a Summoner\\'s Ruin spell is 80 potency, whilst Drain is 50 potency I think)
    (0)

  5. #5
    Player
    Rawrz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    1,704
    Character
    Sir Rawrz
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptus View Post
    Why does it seem like melee and ranged magic DPS roles are lacking?

    Tank role abilities decrease damage, increase healing, manage aggro etc.

    Heal role abilities increase healing, allow for swift cast, sure they have some terrible abilities in Break and Cleric Stance only being 5%.

    Bards and Machinist roles make sense. They've always been support and the roles reflect that accordingly.

    However Ranged Magic has absolutely nothing that increases their damage, and neither do melee dps. These "Role Abilities" don't fit their role at all.

    Crutch and Arms length are probably barely ever used. Feint's CD is way too much for a 10s ability.

    Break is useless for ranged, as is Drain (it doesn't heal enough). Erase doesn't work on enfeebles, just dots. Addle is as bad as Feint for the same reasons. Apocatastasis is tough to time, because you never really know what attacks are physical or magic even if something looks like and appears to be magic.

    A basic aoe move would help for melee dps when you're synced down and don't have any aoe at all (DRG don't get their spammable until level 40 and ninja don't until 42)
    The moment DPS classes get role abilities that increase damage, those abilities become necesarry over even the best support skills. Could you imagine someone not bringing IR, b4b or raging with crss classes? Thy would be bad.


    Quote Originally Posted by Connor View Post
    And of course, as with all role skill pools, there are some abilities that are functionally useless, for casters Break is the biggest offender, as is Drain due to the low potency and healing it offers (for comparison, a Summoner\\'s Ruin spell is 80 potency, whilst Drain is 50 potency I think)
    Drain is 80. Ruin is 100 with a proc attached.
    (8)
    Last edited by Rawrz; 09-20-2017 at 09:45 AM.

  6. #6
    Player
    Kabooa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    4,391
    Character
    Jace Ossura
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 100
    Because anything that increases damage would be straight up mandatory.
    (12)

  7. #7
    Player
    Deceptus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    The Goblet - 16th Ward, Plot 55
    Posts
    4,418
    Character
    Deceptus Keelon
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kabooa View Post
    Because anything that increases damage would be straight up mandatory.
    Provoke and Swiftcast are considered mandatory on tanks and healers. Generally Rampart and Largesse are as well.
    (1)

  8. #8
    Player
    Kabooa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    4,391
    Character
    Jace Ossura
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptus View Post
    Provoke and Swiftcast are considered mandatory on tanks and healers. Generally Rampart and Largesse are as well.
    Imagine how quickly that dynamic shifts if you move Internal Release, Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes, and Leylines into the Role Menu, any role menu (Tank, melee, ranged, caster, or healer)

    Would you argue any of those would be considered 'optional'?
    (1)

  9. #9
    Player
    Connor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    2,166
    Character
    Connor Whelan
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Rawrz View Post
    Drain is 80. Ruin is 100 with a proc attached.
    I see, not sure where I got the potencies I stated from then. I'd like to think my point about Drain still stands; there isn't much use for an 80 potency heal when you can use Ruin III (or IV with procs) and just end the encounter.

    I agree that adding damage buffs to role skills would result in them being considered mandatory, which would just limit the amount of support abilities you could take. I think a better way to solve the OP's issue would be to make each ability available through role skills equally viable (or at least close) in party content.
    (0)

  10. #10
    Player
    KDSilver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    1,533
    Character
    Shiru Elysia
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 100
    Every dps classes have skills and rotation to increase their damages.
    They don't need to it on the role action system.

    But they all increase their damages in different ways.
    That's why there not a unique skill in that system.

    There's nothing else to understand, here's the answer to your question.
    (1)

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