Why do tanks no use coold downs?

[Tridus]

Like in Bardram's.

Especially Bardram's.

I tried doing a double pull the first time I tanked Bardams. It went badly. I immediately apologized and said I wouldn't do that again. The groups response was "yep, that happens a lot here."

That place is NASTY if you don't have gear from it. The defense values on tank armor literally go up by hundreds in one dungeon. It's nuts.

[Kabooa]

I tried doing a double pull the first time I tanked Bardams. It went badly. I immediately apologized and said I wouldn't do that again. The groups response was "yep, that happens a lot here."

That place is NASTY if you don't have gear from it. The defense values on tank armor literally go up by hundreds in one dungeon. It's nuts.

It's the first dungeon that breaks the rules of most of HW's 60 dungeons, and even its leveling dungeons.

Firstly, there are -ranged mob packs-. Ranged. Packs. That means while gathering you are constantly being pelted. Even with sprint.

Then you have the Big, Dum Dum Brutes. Unlike previous dungeons, the Big Dum Dum brutes actually feel like a condensed mob pack in health and damage. They hurt, and they take longer to kill. Doma Castle continues this with the Magiteks who are better pulled separately.

And then, you get your mob packs who have mini tankbusters. Those damn stone golems. With both a pummel weapon skill, and a hard hitting Stone spell.

Finally, the Yol is your introduction to rapid 'every 10 second' tankbusters. People point at Charlbert for his more technical demand on healers, and the Yol be like "GONNA JUST !@#% YOU UP FAM, NO MECHANICS ABOUT IT"

It's honestly embarrassing how the Expert Dungeons look in comparison to Bardram's.

I never, ever feel safe when Bardram's pops up.

[kikix12]

One reason why tanks may refuse to use cooldowns is that they consider them the "panic" buttons that healers and even some DPS have. Everyone is fine with the healer holding Tetragramation/Indomitability and Lustrate/Essential Dignity for "oh s***" situations...why the push for cooldowns on tanks?!
And yes, there's Holmgang/Living Dead/Hallowed Ground, but that's just one, super-long cooldown that is a once-in-a-dungeon thing. And stuff goes south more than just once in a dungeon usually. It's even rarer than Benediction, which only few hardcore "Optimal" players use liberally for special pulls...and that's usually in pre-made parties. I mean, if it DOES go south, chances are someone is just not up to par in the first place rather than honest to goodnes random screwup.

Now you may ask why those players don't use them in a pinch either, then?! And this can be answered in a less fortunate way.
Forgetfulness, lack of skill that makes them pop those too late (20% off damage won't save a tank that's at 5% of HP...), a miss-click/button-push, lag/packet loss (yes, my abilities often do NOT go off if I just push them once, so that does happen). Last but not least...that player could have used it earlier under the pressure and it's just on cooldown.


In an "ideal world", every tank will use their cooldowns to increase the pace of going through dungeon. Since it's an "ideal world", people don't make mistakes and panic buttons aren't needed. Every healer will use their cooldowns (Benediction included) to increase their DPS time and decrease mana consumption for even more DPS (those skills don't use MP after all). And DPS will use their cooldowns to quickly burn through the most fearsome foes in a pack while using global for an AoE, or if everyone is equal, they will spread their cooldowns around so that the pack will be killed all at once through the AoE's. But this, nor any other, world is ideal. So long as there is an actual reason beyond "I don't feel like using them. You're the healer, so just heal me through.", it's just something you'll have to accept.

PS: I'm using all three roles, but my primary preference is by far healing (and tanking is the least). So no, I'm not making excuses for myself.

[Taika]

Everyone is fine with the healer holding Tetragramation/Indomitability and Lustrate/Essential Dignity for "oh s***" situations...

Nope they aren't. That's really bad healer play (like not using cooldowns is really bad tank play). You're supposed to utilise your abilities to prevent s*itty situations from happening, not save them for in case they would happen (in which case they might go to waste entirely, or in worst case you're the one causing the s*tty situation).

[Mavrias]

Nope they aren't. That's really bad healer play (like not using cooldowns is really bad tank play). You're supposed to Wgmi your abilities to prevent s*itty situations from happening, not save them for in case they would happen (in which case they might go to waste entirely, or in worst case you're the one causing the s*tty situation).

This is also true. Like Hallowed Ground, you should be planning your usage of things like Lustrate or Tetra or Essential Dignity rather than save them for emergency. Every moment you spend saving it for an emergency is a second wasted towards the next use.

[kikix12]

Nope they aren't. That's really bad healer play (like not using cooldowns is really bad tank play). You're supposed to utilise your abilities to prevent s*itty situations from happening, not save them for in case they would happen (in which case they might go to waste entirely, or in worst case you're the one causing the s*tty situation).

Eh...wrong. People that go for maximum efficiency are not fine with healers holding onto them. But in duty finder you find all sorts of people. If I tried to go for maximum efficiency, all the times that holding onto those things saved the party from deaths or even wipes does more than make up for the minute or two lost per every run where I didn't make use of it. And no one ever told me to use any of these skills. Not once.

And sorry, but in the case of Scholar in particular, you are entirely wrong. Lustrate/Indomitability use the same resources as Energy Drain. NOT using them liberally and using Energy Drain instead before the Aetherflow recharges is BETTER than wasting Lustrate as a standard heal. Because not only does it deal damage (worse than Broil/Broil II, but not terrible), it also restores mana, which in Scholars case in particular (the heaviest mana user of the healers) is pretty important nowadays.

That being said, there were boss battles in dungeons, trials, heck, even standard large pulls, where I specificially held onto aetherflow and saved a wipe like that, thanks to having six stacks at my beck and call when necessary. In some cases, it's just very simple for less experienced people to make mistake and go from 100% health to critical health, possibly more than once.


You seem to be misunderstanding what a bad healer is. A bad healer is a healer that does not take advantage of their tools properly, but it's also a healer that burns their limited resources when it's not necessary. A bad healer is a healer that does not take into consideration the random aspect of peoples mistakes (even if the mobs themselves may work on a script) or even their own or others gear being sub-par. Basically, a bad healer, like every bad "someone", is a person that does not adapt to the situation but only follows a "script". How and when cooldowns are used is such a script. Sure, in a good party, they can be used more liberally (though as I said in Scholars case, not necessarily on healing). But you cannot say to every healer that pops up to do that, because there are times when it cannot be done like that. Same with tank cooldowns. Some healers or DPS are more prone to forcing a tank to keep the cooldowns for more edgy situations. You can say all you want that those situations could be avoided by using them preemptively or whatever, but that's wrong. Things that go wrong usually go wrong due to random things (well, players mistakes), and throwing a cooldown preemptively is just gambling.

[Taika]

You seem to be misunderstanding what a bad healer is. A bad healer is a healer that does not take advantage of their tools properly, but it's also a healer that burns their limited resources when it's not necessary. A bad healer is a healer that does not take into consideration the random aspect of peoples mistakes (even if the mobs themselves may work on a script) or even their own or others gear being sub-par. Basically, a bad healer, like every bad "someone", is a person that does not adapt to the situation but only follows a "script". How and when cooldowns are used is such a script. Sure, in a good party, they can be used more liberally (though as I said in Scholars case, not necessarily on healing). But you cannot say to every healer that pops up to do that, because there are times when it cannot be done like that. Same with tank cooldowns. Some healers or DPS are more prone to forcing a tank to keep the cooldowns for more edgy situations. You can say all you want that those situations could be avoided by using them preemptively or whatever, but that's wrong. Things that go wrong usually go wrong due to random things (well, players mistakes), and throwing a cooldown preemptively is just gambling.

I have actually been playing healer in this game's endgame content since forever, maining it from 2012 until early Stormblood (SCH throughout Alexander Savage). I'm so happy to finally have someone to explain to me how I'm misunderstanding what a good or bad healer are, though! :P

Of course a good player can adapt to different situations and strategies, that's a given. However, it makes absolutely no sense to spend your time sitting on your resources waiting for something bad that may or may not happen. That's simply not effective use of your abilities - on any job! And I'm not talking about aiming for maximum optimal performance in Duty Finder expert roulette, but instead just using your abilities in a reasonable manner. For a healer that means primarily healing with regens and ocd heals, and rotating your other cooldowns (such as Largesse, other stuff depending on the job) in turns whenever they're available. When we start thinking optimisation, the aim is to spend as few gcds on casting healing spells as possible (to be able to use those on DPS instead). Absolutely no one should sit on Tetra or Essential Dignity - those are available for pretty much every single pull!

Similarly with tank cooldowns, if we're talking about casual content such as expert dungeons, you are primarily expected to rotate them for those big pulls you're doing, so that the more enemies you have on you (or the more damage incoming), the better you are shielded against it. Your job is to mitigate the damage and try to get your HP to drop as slowly as possible, so that the healer can more easily keep up with the damage with passive and ocd heals, instead of letting it drop quickly, forcing both yourself and the healer to move to emergency mode (seeing your HP drop low and then hitting as many defensive cooldowns as possible while your healer is using their gcds on heal spam).

Resources for healers or tanks aren't very limited in DF content - especially when you have planned how to rotate them beforehand. By saying a healer should use all their instant heals in their normal healing I don't mean a WHM burning Tetra, Asylum, Largesse, Assize and Benediction on the first pull, but instead planning how to use them in that specific content in specific pulls. Sometimes mistakes happen, but they are rarely serious in the content we're discussing about, and many difficult situations can be avoided by planning your healing and tanking well in the first place (since it's also easier adapt and adjust your pattern a bit if you have the basics safely covered in the first place!). And of course I'm not saying that you should burn those abilities when there's no need for them either: if you've been planning to use that Benediction on first pull but the tank never drops below 50%, there's of course no reason to use it. You should know the content and plan your ability use accordingly, but you should also be open for adjusting your plan based on the situation and your party.

[kikix12]

I have actually been playing healer in this game's endgame content since forever, maining it from 2012 until early Stormblood (SCH throughout Alexander Savage). I'm so happy to finally have someone to explain to me how I'm misunderstanding what a good or bad healer are, though! :P

And that's why you generalize. I'm sorry, but most of what you do probably ends up being with people that know what they're doing as well. You would be surprised how badly some people can screw things up even in standard content. And I'm not talking expert roulette, either, as that in itself is a bit more demanding. I'm talking about those lower "grade" dungeons that you can get in Leveling Roulette, or the 50/60 Roulette. Sure, they are mostly pretty easy. But they have instances that are prone for screwup. Serious screwup.

Of course, the very low level dungeons are irrelevant here. I mean, if a Scholars fairy can solo-heal the dungeon even with lowered potency on Embrace...there's really nothing to talk about. But party members ignoring the healer is in a bubble on that lizard boss in Brayflox? It takes a bit of time for the healer to destroy it from within (assuming the healer knows he can do it), and if the tank isn't too well-geared or wasn't at high enough HP, it may not be fast enough. Bombs in Halatali, even the mines?! Bee's in Quarns temple? The game throws things, mechanics, that are easy to avoid, but punish severely for not doing that. Especially if there is a large difference between the skill of the tank and the rest of the party, from a healers stand point, an AoE heavy dungeon can be a pain. When the tank gathers multiple packs...he can handle it with the healer...but the DPS end up falling for them. Aurum Vale and its marlboros can show you how quickly things can go south out of the blue. And the Coincounter can show you how badly some players can play. There is literally one technique that boss have that should be a threat to ranged players, yet no matter how many times I came across it, there was at least ONE ranged DPS death. Instant death, so no, a healer can't do jack squat to that, needs to recover from it. Why?! Because ranged DPS decide to come within few yards of the boss. Why?! No idea. But that's what they do. Same will all bosses. Ranged DPS and many healers in this game have a horrid tendency to come close to the boss even if he throws deadly AoE's left and right. That's understandable in small arenas or when the boss have donut-shaped or similar AoE's. But those are a minority. And ranged approach ALL bosses.

You should know the content and plan your ability use accordingly, but you should also be open for adjusting your plan based on the situation and your party.

You see...this is a very important part. And one that basically invalidates your entire argument...since it's true (and what I was saying throughout my posts past the first). Why?! Because your entire argument is based on generalization, while this one is objective.

As I said above, I wholeheartedly agree that not using the tools available is a sign of bad, or at least, inexperienced healer. However, cooldown use (or lack of it) is a situational thing based on something that the healer doesn't have control of.
First, a healer needs to know the dungeon. It cannot be done without running it at least multiple times. Seeing as you often get new people in duty finder...clearly, that's impossible to expect often. And when a healer doesn't know the dungeon?! Of course, it's safer to withold on using some/all of the cooldowns at least until the player sees the first few fights with the enemies.
Second, a healer can be paired with a paper tank, or a juggernaut. Or, like how sometimes is the case, "I won't use tank stance cause it hurts my DPS!" tank. Which would be fine if not for the fact that these sorts usually die as quickly as the DPS do as well...and don't hold enmity too well either. Ones that know what they are doing are just rarely doing this sort of content with their tanks after all. And even if they do, they tend to tank in tank stance to make it easier on the other members, at least if asked, anyway.

So yes, I play a devils advocate here. Is using the cooldowns "casually" a sign of a good healer/tank?! It may be, if they are used properly, that is. But is not doing that signs of a bad healer/tank?!...Possibly. Not necessarily. How cooldowns are used is based on factors that are out of the healers/tanks control. They need to "adapt". That's why I disagree with you saying that not using cooldowns is sign of a bad healer/tank. Not because it is inherently wrong, but before it is not clear enough.
They need to be properly timed. And for that, one needs to KNOW about the dungeon, the party and their own limitations in respect to it. The cooldowns may be short, but they do not necessarily have to be usable in every battle. A mob may take less time to clear, while the cooldown may have been used about halfway into the battle. That means that you won't have it for most of the next battle. Maybe there are these bee's with their Final Sting (which is very much survivable by the way) and the DPS just refuses to kill them fast enough. Happened more than once in my parties. So the cooldown may be used at the end of the battle. Admittedly, there is quite a lot of time after the bees where it wouldn't really be neccessary (except for another Final Sting), but hey. Stuff happens where you may end up having these skills on cooldown for most/all of a battle. And that is with planning ahead.


Rather than say that you are wrong or I am right, I'm going to say that both of us spoke of two sides of one coin. That's what it was from the get-go. So really, all I've been trying to point is...to not forget about that other side. By saying "you do it like this, you do it bad" in absolutes is just that...forgetting there is that other side. That leads to players that play only one way, then the party wipes and they complain about everyone but themselves "It's not my fault! I always did it like this and it worked! You all suck!".

[MoroMurasaki]

Finally, the Yol is your introduction to rapid 'every 10 second' tankbusters. People point at Charlbert for his more technical demand on healers, and the Yol be like "GONNA JUST !@#% YOU UP FAM, NO MECHANICS ABOUT IT"

It's honestly embarrassing how the Expert Dungeons look in comparison to Bardram's.

I never, ever feel safe when Bardram's pops up.

I feel this so much. My first tank here was an ilvl270 STR acc WAR and every time now I have flashbacks of him when things get a little shaky there. He wasn't allergic to his CDs more just used them randomly and in clumps.