Tips on being a mentor but not sounding bossy

[Jas710]

...if that was the case why would I be asking for tips in the first place I already have the crown as you say...

I run into players all the time who are still learning their jobs. I should get paid every time I have to mention Shield Oath or Protect, etc.

Thing is, you seem to think wearing a crown designates you an "official" mentor. Which like I mentioned earlier about the system itself, is a load of b.s. We should all be in mentor mode anyway whether we have that icon on or not. That was my point.

Besides, if you were truly ready to mentor people, why does this thread exist? A mentor who doesn't understand why some folks go on the defensive after receiving advice they didn't ask for? Keep that crown off until you figure it out. If you want to toggle that icon on, then you also need to be prepared for scrutiny.

If I sound aggressive, it's because I see terrible "mentors" all the time, and just roll my eyes.

[Altena]

If I sound aggressive, it's because I see terrible "mentors" all the time, and just roll my eyes.

The mentor system is more about answering simple questions such as "where do I get a mount?" or "I can't find my next MSQ" etc...

Everyone should be in "mentor mode" when running stuff, I will agree there.. However the mentor system works for those basic questions that I mentioned.
You don't have to be an all-star vet to answer questions like that - just knowledgeable enough to know where to find the answer and most importantly willing enough to help.

There are always going to be "bad" mentors that give the crown a bad name, just as there are plenty of non-crown players that give the rest of the community a bad name.
The only reason people keep seeing "bad mentors" is because there is something to make them stand out.
I can almost assure you the percentage of unhelpful/toxic mentors compared to helpful/positive ones, is likely a similar number to unhelpful/toxic non-mentors compared to helpful/positive non-mentors.

The issue is not with the system, but with the selection. Becoming a mentor has nothing to do with a player's willingness to help out. It's about having jobs/classes leveled. The system itself is perfectly fine (having a newbie chat channel and something to identify someone in a duty that is willing to help).

[Raqrie_Tohka]

I respectfully disagree.

I respect your disagreement. But I am not wholly persuaded by it. As I said, there are those kinds of people who will not be persuaded by words, and there are also those who are better at words than you, or would like to use words the wrong way, aka. word puzzles. Structured argument and conclusions, even in your concise 3-sentence format, would achieve nothing if the person was not feeling like listening to begin with. You may be able to win a debate and force the other to realize "yes, I am doing this wrong, I am slowing down the run, I am bad, and I should probably do it in a better way", but you cannot make them want to "improve, adapt, be a nicer person and make the game better for everyone, in general". You are not their butler and you cannot be there the next time they does something wrong, or every time after that too.

So my line of logic is that instead of correcting their trivial mistake one at a time, it be better you let them understand, even just a little, and via showing, not telling, what it means to think, to think of actions and mechanics in this game, to think for others, and to continuously improve of oneself. Of course this is not applicable nor even ideal for all situations as Miste said, but this is my thoughts on the matter and my stance on it as well.

Jas710 also mentions that if one mentors, one mentors regardless of the status or not, a viewpoint I echoed. But Altena also points out the "mentor" system by itself is highly structural and only for answering "simple questions", perhaps not truly worth the "mentor" name. But then again, "botanist" in this game only has about 2.5% similarity to actual real life botany, at most, So I guess this is just a make believe game meant to make you feel good while doing good things. Mentor system may be no different ... thus your "control" view of only taking mentor system like a job or task to only give enough and nothing more ... only focusing on clarity and professionalism in wording, is actually sound reasoning from this perspective. I would reason in the same way too, back when I did telephone operator for community hotlines, by being a human google on a phone. You don't put emotion into it even if your whole job was a charity to help. But do we like it? Is that truly an ideal existence? Is there nothing we can do about it? Well now we get to the big questions again.

[Miste]

A mentor who doesn't understand why some folks go on the defensive after receiving advice they didn't ask for? Keep that crown off until you figure it out.

Are you saying mentors should just not mentor unless asked for help?

Mentor system seems flawed because everyone has their own opinions on what a mentor should do and basically says every mentor should uphold their standard otherwise they are a bad mentor, yet in general you won't know what someone elses standard is unless they openly tell you. Usually people don't so then you just end up with a "I ran into a bad mentor" stories on the forum. Some mentors do cross that line in to actually being bad in a general sense if they are rude and/or don't at least give help if asked, but sometimes it is hard to draw a line anywhere above that basic level.

Like I see people say "only give advice if someone asked, don't give unsolicited advice" and then you have the other half saying "you should be actively giving help, you should be actively giving advice, you shouldn't be a mentor if you are going to stay silent". Some people think a mentor should try to mentor even if the run is going generally fine and no mistakes much, while others would get upset that you would try to say or suggest optimized ways to do things better because it is elitist or "who cares this content is faceroll".

It's impossible to please everyone so that's why we get so much mentor flak. One mentor did something this way and this person didn't like it while another likes that mentor for the same behavior. Cannot win.

[Raqrie_Tohka]

It's impossible to please everyone so that's why we get so much mentor flak. One mentor did something this way and this person didn't like it while another likes that mentor for the same behavior. Cannot win.

Understanding that people are different is a good place to start, to eventually find an adapted solution for all. You can win. Please don't fatalistic attitude me >_< when I'm already having a hard enough time convincing myself. (It's a joke don't take it personally). Don't offer help ... be the help. Don't 'please', don't pander for favor ... the correct word is 'respect'. Gosh I suppose no one ever reads very long posts anyways, but I totally mentioned all this already.

[Miste]

Don't offer help ... be the help. Don't 'please', don't pander for favor ... the correct word is 'respect'. Gosh I suppose no one ever reads very long posts anyways, but I totally mentioned all this already.

Huh? I never said we should try to please everyone or pander for favor (I actually said it is impossible to do that anyway).

I think you might have misunderstood me? I was branching off what the person I quoted said.

When you queue for duties and do your role you already automatically are "being" the help. It is sort of something you do by default...I mean unless someone plays their role very detrimentally, but most people don't.

(also yes sorry I saw your long post but it was way too long for me to read)

[Vandril]

I mean the way you put it here seems like you believe there is only one solution, but there isn't just one...there are many solutions even if others are not easily obtainable.

I think we're talking two different types of solutions, from the sound of it. I'm talking immediate, short term solutions, and it looks to me like you're talking extremely long term. As far as short term solutions to this problem go, there really is only one solution that I'm aware of: careful wording. As I said before, just about the only aspect of the problem we're in control of is the words we use and whether we use words at all; the latter avoids the problem entirely but doesn't really solve it. However, if you're talking playing the long game with openly advocating that people not jump the gun and make assumptions about people's intentions, then I completely agree with you. If enough people did so, in the long term, there would be changes.

When I say that careful wording is the only viable solution, I mean so within the scope of the thread. While a long term solution is valuable and should be pursued, it won't help now or anytime soon. Since the topic of the thread is how to be a mentor without sounding bossy, presumably to avoid causing a negative reaction from the person being helped, it's safe to say that a long term solution isn't what's being asked for. Outside a limited scope of time, though, the long term solution is the better.

Ideally, good mentors will follow through with both solutions.

[Raqrie_Tohka]

When you queue for duties and do your role you already automatically are "being" the help. It is sort of something you do by default...I mean unless someone plays their role very detrimentally, but most people don't.

Then we are all entitled to be of help for simply existing ... and same argument for them, they are of help simply by playing this game and paying subscription to support it. How dare we criticize them for trivial things like "playstyle" >;


But I jest. What I envisioned when I said to "be" of help, was almost akin to acting. But in honest action instead of fake acting. A natural occurrence of the factors involved, no more, no less. "Act" yourself, instead of "be" yourself. By injecting dynamism and showing, not telling, the point, you are more likely to overall succeed in moving their position and actions instead by pure words alone. If they see the party suffering they are more likely to think and do something about it than if they were told about the effects, or even worse, persuaded to see it that way. It means sometimes you must even play along, fool around with them, joke alongside with them, even try their standpoint. But no more, no less, than as if naturally occurring. You are not the efficiency police. Nor a mentor. Just another player who may or may not happen to share an experience with them.

And on in general: (Vandril)
I've seen more normal players do mechanics explanations of duties than all the help I've seen from mentors combined, of course with party finder nowadays it's all business as usual and lack of efficiency will not be tolerated ... and if someone actually claims a mentor, then they'd better bring to the table more than just another "explanation". A "better worded explanation" simply won't cut it. It's all-out performance and socializing we're expected of. Nothing short of miracles, if miracles were expected from the developers too. You may think words alone will cut it, but hehe, the players who see our shiny mentor icon won't. That thing alone is sometimes enough to rile a person up enough to not give a care about your "carefully worded proposition of advice". Think outside the box. See us for the ivory tower position we are perceived in. Even the developers themselves face minute discriminant observation. Thus they have to abide to corporate policies and "careful wording" to stay safe. You think people can't identify "careful wording" when they see it? That even if some are not capable of playing word games, they cannot recognize one? If they perceive it as "purposeful acting, playing them for fools", they may even be more mad than if we just chilled. So it's probably not best to put so much faith in words alone.

[ElHeggunte]

A mentor who doesn't understand why some folks go on the defensive after receiving advice they didn't ask for? Keep that crown off until you figure it out.

I'll reiterate (for what feels like the fourth time in this thread) the problem with more or less waiting for "permission" to give advice: people aren't going to ask for advice if they don't know they need it. More knowledgeable players keeping their mouth shut until they're "allowed" to speak is precisely why you have a lot of bad players doing the things that they do. They didn't know they needed help so they didn't ask for any. You didn't correct them because you're waiting in vain for them to ask you.

The playerbase as a whole needs to stop trying to mollycoddle everyone's fragile ego. Advice should be given as long as it's being given in a constructive manner. If someone wants to get offended or upset over being corrected, that's entirely their own problem, not yours. Someone potentially getting upset is a poor reason to withhold advice. We would have far less players wearing the wrong equipment or not using skills properly if more people just spoke up.

[Miste]

However, if you're talking playing the long game with openly advocating that people not jump the gun and make assumptions about people's intentions, then I completely agree with you. If enough people did so, in the long term, there would be changes.

I said that point multiple times D:

I guess there was some confusion or you missed it.

Even if the thread isn't really looking for long term it still is a good thing to mention that it isn't only one side of this that needs to rethink their approach. It takes at least two people to have a conversation so all the responsibility isn't only on the person initiating it to be mindful. The person on receiving end should be as well. Long term or not respect goes both ways.

I also wanted to point out that people should be aware that even if they change how they word things to softer speech it doesn't mean they won't get backlash anymore. My personal experience taught me quickly that no matter how softly you try to word things it can still result in bad backlash and insults from the other person. I also feel like some people consider all the fault of such an encounter lies with the person who initiated the dialogue...which is completely false.

What I envisioned when I said to "be" of help, was almost akin to acting. But in honest action instead of fake acting. A natural occurrence of the factors involved, no more, no less. "Act" yourself, instead of "be" yourself. By injecting dynamism and showing, not telling, the point, you are more likely to overall succeed in moving their position and actions instead by pure words alone. If they see the party suffering they are more likely to think and do something about it than if they were told about the effects, or even worse, persuaded to see it that way. It means sometimes you must even play along, fool around with them, joke alongside with them, even try their standpoint. But no more, no less, than as if naturally occurring. You are not the efficiency police. Nor a mentor. Just another player who may or may not happen to share an experience with them.

I'm sorry, but like I said initially I think you've misunderstood what I was saying. I have no idea what your response has to do with what I said. Efficiency police? I don't do that...I never said I do that? Sorry I just don't know what you are trying to tell me.

Someone potentially getting upset is a poor reason to withhold advice. We would have far less players wearing the wrong equipment or not using skills properly if more people just spoke up.

I feel bad for not speaking up, but I am also sick and tired of getting insults flung at me for it too. I mean no one should have to deal with harassment and sometimes I don't feel like being abused even if it is just with words. There is enough reasons to get depressed sometimes without adding more; so if only it didn't keep happening I would be happy to speak up more often to help (I used to help way way more often, but after so much I have eventually come to more often keep my mouth shut)....as it stands I have been harassed for pretty much anything you can think of.

Asked a PLD politely to use Shield Oath in a leveling dungeon because he had no oath on and couldn't hold hate.
Got all sorts of swears flung at me then they quit the dungeon then the rest of the party blamed me for making us lose the tank.

Reminded an AST politely that they forgot their sect.
Got harassed and they kept making fun of me for my glamour for the next half of the run and about any thing they consider bad about how I play even though nothing was going wrong until I got fed up and left.

Reminded a NIN they forgot their poison.
Got harassed.

Politely mentioned to a SMN (who was only using Shadow Flare and Ruin II exclusively) that Bio, Bio II, and Miasma are also great spells and fun to use.
Also mentioned to that SMN about the cannons in Stone Vigil HM after the fight that if they get this dungeon again use the cannons to hit the boss. (I saw they weren't using them)
Got harassed with a nice "f*** off"

Tried to politely mention to a NIN in The Vault who was using an i100 weapon where they could get a better one if they wanted after we finish the dungeon.
Got called an "elitist b****" by the healer. (Even though the NIN actually thanked me for the advice after).

This is only a few of them, there is plenty more.

Maybe I am just insanely unlucky I don't know, but this is depressing and has jaded me. I get that there are bad apples everywhere, but you cannot blame a mentor who rarely speaks up without being asked...considering what can happen if they do. I've seen many people comment that they don't want unsolicited advice and it seems to be in my case the people I run into the most and it sets them off to do so.

I am not saying mentors shouldn't ever speak up, if they are fine with the reactions they get, I am just saying you cannot really blame the silent ones...you never know what they went through :/

I mean I like doing mentor roulette because it is fun to play different jobs for it and you never know what content you are going to get, but there is only so much someone can take and if it is better to get the content done for the group and avoid verbal abuse, vote kicks, people leaving, party disbanding then I may do that instead of saying anything. After all mentor player or not this game is supposed to be entertainment and it is supposed to fun first and foremost. Insults being thrown at you doesn't really fall into those categories.

I am not saying you blame mentors who don't speak up, but I just wanted to point out why some may withhold advice unless specifically asked for some.