Just another thread asking for in-game parsing for ps4 users

[Taika]

You dont see it for the explicit reason of SE both can and will crack down on people getting hostile over people underperforming. A quiet removal is not hostility, but neither is that what I'm talking about either. I'm specificly talking about the people who you know damn well will go out of their way to yell and critique other peoples performance if given permission.

But allowing parsing does not equal giving permission to this type of behaviour.

[Lazaruz]

But allowing parsing does not equal giving permission to this type of behaviour.

Neither did I say it did. So thanks for putting words in my mouth

[Mycow8me]

Here's a thought. How about GMs do their job and suspend or ban these types of people? You cannot blame parses for WoW's apparent incompetent management. Regardlesss, you don't see that same attitude in FFXIV, and I can assure you someone will have ACT up for EX and Savage content. What happens instead if people silently kick or disband without specifically mentioning numbers. It's hardly unreasonable they don't want to carry players who aren't pulling their weight.



While I do not disagree with the overall sentiment of prioritizing self improvement. It's, once again, not unreasonable to think there might be an issue when I'll nearly pull 5k on Samurai and a Monk can't break 3k. That tells me immediately something is quite wrong. Now I won't scream at them but I would wanting to link them a guide of some sort because that shouldn't be happening in Savage. Should I stay silent though and just do double the work to make up for their poor performance? I suppose so...

If you don't want to be silent... don't. I just take the passive stance on it and would prefer they had the tools for self improvement beforehand. Assume that every player wants to improve and is willing to use those tools and if not, theres still nothing gained nothing lost. At least at that point you know they are not interested or don't care. Let's look at the opposite end of the spectrum, tell them their number after the fight, tell them they have a problem. Tell them how to improve, by all means go alongside them for a few days and teach them. See how many you will get willing to go through that process or not lash out at you that aren't friends. How many people have you taken step by step to help improve lets be honest here. Most of the people who group parse do exactly that, find out the DPS is not enough and leave. Maybe after using a personal parser they still have a problem, maybe beforehand they hated the idea of parsers but this personal parser gave them some insight into the process. Maybe the next time they won't lash out, maybe they would be more caring of where they stand. You all want instant acceptance but wont even give an inch.

Should I pretend that a personal parser isn't going to help that mnk become better in the first place? I suppose so...

Why is the answer always to link someone to a guide anyway? FFS not everyone wants to read a wall of text or is even capable of getting better in this way. Some are capable of getting better on their own. PS4 players don't have any tools to do so. Plain and simple, hell they don't even know what their dps is and here we are arguing over personal parse for improvement purposes vs group parse to find people with problems to later help them improve by throwing a novel in their face. I half think the parsing community is actually responsible for the toxic attitudes they receive because the way you perceive these tools is utterly different from just wishing players had utilities at their disposal for getting better.

Well I finished my novel I guess. I'm leaving this topic for better or worse.

[Taika]

How many people have you taken step by step to help improve lets be honest here. Most of the people who group parse do exactly that, find out the DPS is not enough and leave.

What exactly are you basing this on? I only have my own experience, but at least in the parties me and my friends are doing for learning and practicing extreme or Savage content (have been running Savage learning / first clear parties for 3 weeks in a row now for the floors we have on farm, taking newbies with us), we don't care about anyone's DPS before the group has met enrage several times. At that point, if someone is underperforming enough that they're personally preventing the group from winning, the situation will be discussed. If it turns out the person can't improve enough to be able to clear at that point, they will of course get replaced (so that everyone else wouldn't miss their clear just because of 1 person), but it's done in a friendly manner (they are encouraged to get some more practice and then they can clear for sure).

I have been running with someone parsing in a group since at least 2.0 (I don't remember if there were parsers in 1.0) and people have always offered advice first and given people a chance to improve, and only replacing the person if the person is really holding the group back and is unable to do the content at that time. And I definitely don't see anything wrong with that either.

(Now it's a different situation if a person is joining for example farm groups that only allow people who actually have the fight on farm. In that case, if there's a person who is significantly underperforming (as in if everyone would play at the same level they would never beat the fight), they may just be kicked instead of offered advice, since they intentionally joined a group and weren't able to offer what was required.)

More importantly: the parsers are already there, widely used (like said, it's pretty sure at least one person is parsing for every single extreme / savage run you do, practice or farm). All the things that can possibly follow from players parsing are already happening. Providing players with an official parser will only do two things: make it transparent (and, as such, fair for everyone included) and let PS4 have access to a tool PC users are already using.

[Lazaruz]

More importantly: the parsers are already there, widely used (like said, it's pretty sure at least one person is parsing for every single extreme / savage run you do, practice or farm). All the things that can possibly follow from players parsing are already happening. Providing players with an official parser will only do two things: make it transparent (and, as such, fair for everyone included) and let PS4 have access to a tool PC users are already using.

The parsers are there, yes, but it's not a official software developed or endorsed by SE, so the stance of "Dont get caught harassing people with it, and we'll look the other way", becomes alot easier, since you're not "supposed" to have it to begin with.

I love how the "pro-parser" community though seem to have this idea that a official parser wont immensely complicate the harassment reports though, because you're talking about a official software, and it's quite easy to make the case of it being there and official means A) SE wants you to use it, and B) Since they want you to use it, the line between "harassment" and "critique" becomes alot more blurry, because again you're using a officially supported tool to base your "critique" on.

I also find it frankly astounding how many of you can only point to your own positive experience with parsers among friends and the like, while simultaneously crying foul over the people opposing parsers because of their negative experience with it.

I have no reason to believe that as soon as SE drops the act and openly allows parser use, we wont see PF groups with "DPS over X, or kick", and the associated hostility once people are "sub-optimal". Because god knows if you enjoy min-maxing yourself to hell and back, you apparently have the right to impose it on every single person you come across.

I regret getting involved in this topic, and it's a misstake I'll be rectifying immediately, as I have much better things to spend my time on then arguing with people both uninterested, and ignorant of the opposing view

You're getting pretty hostile here over opinions yeah?.....If you want to be a spokesperson for not getting hostile you might want to not end up hostile yourself.

Your input has been noted. Now do me a favour and toss some at the people who went on page upon page of "WHY DONT YOU AGREE?!?!?!" just because they cannot fathom how someone couldnt have the same positive experience they had parsing among friends, when playing with complete randoms, and are labouring under some kind of delusion that just because THEY arent a complete asshole, it apparently means every single person ever that also parses, are not guilty of incredibly toxic behaviour

And if you honestly think this is me mad, or hostile, I can honestly say you've neither met, or spoken with me, when I'm actually either of those two.

Either way, I'm gonna bugger off, since this echo chamber is getting rather blatant.
But I can say with certainty, that if SE ever implements a "official" parsing tool, it'll be the day my sub ends, permanently.

[Taika]

Since they want you to use it, the line between "harassment" and "critique" becomes alot more blurry, because again you're using a officially supported tool to base your "critique" on.

How would they become more blurry? Right now you can say "You're performing really badly!" and that's not considered harassment. Then you could say "You're performing really badly: your DPS is only 2500 when it should be 4000!". And again, if you add any personal insults or bad language to those, they'll turn into harassment, despite if numbers have been used or not. The main difference in my eyes is that when the numbers are used, the person receiving the critisism will know if it's based on facts or not.

I also find it frankly astounding how many of you can only point to your own positive experience with parsers among friends and the like, while simultaneously crying foul over the people opposing parsers because of their negative experience with it.

They are different arguments. I have personally witnessed parsers being used for good in this game for many years, and I have not yet witnessed a single case of parser-related harassment despite running endgame in this game from 1.0. On the other side, what I see this thread is people speculating about the possibilities of there being parser-related harassment that would somehow appear out of nothing when the official parser would be added. I have not seen this argument being based on even personal experiences from this game (I may have missed a post, of course). Furthermore, the people most fervently arguing against parsers don't even seem to be doing any content in which they are relevant, so the discussion doesn't really even concern them in the first place.

SI have no reason to believe that as soon as SE drops the act and openly allows parser use, we wont see PF groups with "DPS over X, or kick", and the associated hostility once people are "sub-optimal".

How exactly is this different from all the current "high DPS or kick" party finders? Do you think that those people are right now just eyeballing if their party members are pulling enough or not? Furthermore, what exactly would be the issues with these party finders? Players are free to form whatever type of groups they like, and we all have the freedom to choose to either join them or not to join them. I don't join "high DPS or kick" or "one mistake and kick" groups now, and I would not join "4k DPS or kick" groups then, even if I would meet the requirements. And I would not suddenly change the requirements for my own party finders (which are currently something in lines of "be comfortable with the fight and your job and bring patience and good attitude") just because the parsers people are already using would be made visible.

[missybee]

Your input has been noted. Now do me a favour and toss some at the people who went on page upon page of "WHY DONT YOU AGREE?!?!?!" just because they cannot fathom how someone couldnt have the same positive experience they had parsing among friends, when playing with complete randoms, and are labouring under some kind of delusion that just because THEY arent a complete asshole, it apparently means every single person ever that also parses, are not guilty of incredibly toxic behaviour

And if you honestly think this is me mad, or hostile, I can honestly say you've neither met, or spoken with me, when I'm actually either of those two.

Either way, I'm gonna bugger off, since this echo chamber is getting rather blatant.
But I can say with certainty, that if SE ever implements a "official" parsing tool, it'll be the day my sub ends, permanently.

I frequent these forums pretty regularly, and I have to say I think I have found a pretty good candidate for the crankiness award.

I don't think anyone is blind to the fact that there are people who parse and are a-holes. That being said, if someone is continually having negative experiences with people who they suspect are parsing, isn't there a chance that there might be something there worth a deeper dive? If you are laboring under the assumption that the vast majority of people who use parsers aren't complete dicks, then yeah - it does make sense to cry foul when people purport to repeatedly run into harassers and abusers.

If anything, I feel like the people spouting the most toxic nonsense are those who bury their heads in the sand and completely eschew feedback of any kind. The super self-conscious players who will flip out if you make any kind of suggestion as to how to they could streamline their play have been the majority of my negative experiences. So...are we sure those aren't the people in the echo chamber?

I regret getting involved in this topic, and it's a misstake I'll be rectifying immediately, as I have much better things to spend my time on then arguing with people both uninterested, and ignorant of the opposing view

If I roll my eyes any harder, I'll give myself a headache. Bye Felicia.

[AlexionSkylark]

that includes finding if there are any "weakest links" and working on focused improvement for that member, or replacing them.

SE will NEVER, EVER, EVER endorse that kind of thought process. EVER.

[Taika]

SE will NEVER, EVER, EVER endorse that kind of thought process. EVER.

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying. Maybe try more caps?

Edit: To actually contribute, this is a thing that has already happened, is currently happening, and will always happen. There being an official parser compared to current unofficial one won't change that in any way. Exact same things in player behaviour are still forbidden or allowed. What having an official parser does is make this process visible for everyone, and as such more fair. If someone gets kicked, they will know it was because they were underperforming and aren't left to wonder, or if someone is unfairly accused of underperforming they can prove those accusations wrong.

Funny story, just last week, I was accused of underperforming in OS3, "looking for a carry". I did some silly mistakes (being nervous running in a pug), but I was also the top DPS. The party might have kicked me, but didn't (probably thanks to someone parsing!). With an official parser, I would never have had to face that threat in the first place.

[HyoMinPark]

SE will NEVER, EVER, EVER endorse that kind of thought process. EVER.

SE cannot force a particular playstyle upon the playerbase as a whole. They don't endorse or condone things like harassment, but they can't force players to adhere to a singular playstyle (e.g., forcing players to carry bad or lazy players). You don't like the removal of the weakest link playstyle, and that's fine. I prefer to work on improvement unless it's obvious there is nothing that can be done to improve performance, and at that point, you have to remove the problem if you ever hope to progress. Ultimately, however, whatever SE "condones" or "doesn't condone" has zero baring on how the community plays this game.

Don't like Min-maxing Mentality? Don't do it, and don't hang around people who do. Don't like to carry people? Then don't. Want to coddle people and their feelings, and not remove them from a group even though they're hindering progression? You do you. No one will force you to not carry people, or to parse. But you also cannot force other players to carry, or to not parse just because you don't like it.

Whether this was your point or premise in your post, I have no idea. Since it was so incredibly vague and not in any way constructive/contributing to the discussion at hand at all. Though, I am curious as to where you saw that I said SE does condone (and should condone) the playstyle of myself or others who are "pro-parser." That inference is lost on me.