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  1. #1
    Player
    Mycow8me's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    Tolby Seyfert
    World
    Cactuar
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    Blacksmith Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by HyoMinPark View Post
    Except that personal parsers would be completely useless in content where parsing actually matters: that is, current Extreme Primals and Savage Raids (and soon to be the Super Savage/Ultimate raid). You can't look at group DPS in personal parsers, and asking for all 8 members to post said parses in some public chat channel is just completely unnecessary work when a group parser for such content already has all the information there and readily available. Group DPS is what matters when it comes to clearing these fights, and meeting the enrage timer. Sure, to an extent, personal DPS is also important, but without a group parser, statics and parties would have no easy, readily accessible way of knowing whether the thing that was causing them to fail is individual DPS or group DPS; individual failings with healing; individual failings with tanking. The list goes on.

    Parsers don't matter for "casual" content that don't have enrages (e.g., 4-man dungeons and 24-man alliance raids). But they do matter in 8-man content. They are used for personal improvement, yes, but a pervasive, primary function of parsers is use in static/8-man settings to judge group DPS and see if the party has what it takes to clear the content, or if they need to work on something. This is where using parsers in conjunction with a certain website becomes invaluably useful. I know that, without using both resources when analyzing my own static's performance in V3S progression, we would not have been able to pinpoint the issues that were holding us back, and work on fixing them.

    That's something an individual parser cannot give. While I'm not opposed to the idea of individual, personal parsers, I think that content reliant on good group DPS in order to meet enrage should call for a party parser. Again, it's not like SE is going to suddenly make harassing others a-okay with the implementation of such a thing. I doubt they'll ever change their stance on parsers or implement one in-game, considering that arguments like this always arise when someone, like the OP of the thread, just innocently requests a parser for personal use, but I still like to throw in my two cents into the discussions. It's tiring seeing one side claim how "bad" parsers are, and how "toxic" everyone that parses is; such sweeping generalizations really irk me. There are, of course, bad apples in every bunch, but people shouldn't blame the tool because those bad apples use it incorrectly.
    I'm sorry I just can't fathom how you can think a personal parser would be useless in a raid environment because "group dps". Being able to see your own DPS realtime vs mechanics and gear changes is the best way to go about it is called "improvement". If at the end of the fight it could show even more statistics like your crits etc... Then all the better.

    Group DPS is composed of individual DPS's. Your speaking of marginal situations like for example keeping a tank in tank stance so a healer could get off some extra dps at a certain part in a fight actually working out a little better "Group DPS". Yeah I get it, but that fails in comparison to personal parser for improving the DPS that matters real time. PS4 players receiving a number at the end of the fight does not actually help them in the way that a personal parser would.

    I would go out on a limb to say that if personal parsers were released for real time combat evaluation, even people who use act would use these instead to improve and use act for other reasons.
    (1)

  2. #2
    Player
    HyoMinPark's Avatar
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    Lavender Beds, Ward 13, Plot 41
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    Hyomin Park
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    Cactuar
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    Sage Lv 92
    Quote Originally Posted by Mycow8me View Post
    I'm sorry I just can't fathom how you can think a personal parser would be useless in a raid environment because "group dps".
    Please go back and actually read my post in its entirety. Personal parsers will not display the DPS of a group as a whole, and asking for people to post their personal parses in some public chat channel (like a Discord) for comprehensive analysis is a lot of unnecessary and extra work. Why add in all that when you can implement a group parser for content that calls for it, and have all the information readily available right there. I just can't fathom how you fail to see the convenience of such a feature.

    Being able to see your own DPS realtime vs mechanics and gear changes is the best way to go about it is called "improvement". If at the end of the fight it could show even more statistics like your crits etc... Then all the better.

    Group DPS is composed of individual DPS's. Your speaking of marginal situations like for example keeping a tank in tank stance so a healer could get off some extra dps at a certain part in a fight actually working out a little better "Group DPS". Yeah I get it, but that fails in comparison to personal parser for improving the DPS that matters real time. PS4 players receiving a number at the end of the fight does not actually help them in the way that a personal parser would.
    You talk about "real time" DPS numbers, but group parsers would STILL provide said realtime numbers, except with ALL of the party members. They would provide all the information a personal parser would, plus more, in content where said "more" matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark View Post
    He wants to pinpoint who's the person with low DPS so he can KICK him.
    That was and will always be the REAL reason behind people wanting SE to endorse parsing.
    *She. And you must be clairvoyant to know my intentions for wanting SE to condone parser use. You know, aside from never having partied with me, met me, spoke with me, or even interacted with me outside of this thread. Talk about "toxicity".... blindly judging others and making these sweeping generalizations is about as "toxic" as it gets.

    For the record, the only time I kick people from parties is when they're being a jerk for literally no reason. I have never kicked on account of "low numbers" or to "stroke my own e-peen." I don't need that sort of validation in life, thanks.
    (10)
    Last edited by HyoMinPark; 09-07-2017 at 04:21 AM.
    Sage | Astrologian | Dancer

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    Hyomin Park#0055

  3. #3
    Player
    Mycow8me's Avatar
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    Tolby Seyfert
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    Cactuar
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    Blacksmith Lv 70
    I read your post in its entirety, the problem is your trying to discredit the use of a personal parser when it obviously has uses in raid environment while claiming act is more helpful. The problem here is that your more concerned with analyzing a problem or finding the weakest link instead of overall individual player improvement. Act cannot do this realtime. Looking at charts and graphs is one thing, seeing it while its happening is another.

    Sorry ma'am I'm done. I agree to disagree at this point.
    (0)

  4. #4
    Player
    HyoMinPark's Avatar
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    Hyomin Park
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    Cactuar
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    Sage Lv 92
    Quote Originally Posted by Mycow8me View Post
    I read your post in its entirety, the problem is your trying to discredit the use of a personal parser when it obviously has uses in raid environment while claiming act is more helpful. The problem here is that your more concerned with analyzing a problem or finding the weakest link instead of overall individual player improvement. Act cannot do this realtime. Looking at charts and graphs is one thing, seeing it while its happening is another.
    Because if you are in content with a party that continues to fail to meet enrage, sometimes you have to analyze the performance in such a way to find what's wrong, and that includes finding if there are any "weakest links" and working on focused improvement for that member, or replacing them.

    I never made any mentions about ACT specifically. I was talking about implemented group parsers compared to your implemented personal parser, which, since you mention ACT, can be configured to show just personal DPS. I'm not trying to get anyone to "agree" with me; I'm just trying to show players that this unnecessary hostile attitude that has been displayed by some of the anti-parser people in this thread, among others that have popped up on the forum in the past, is just as toxic than the few individuals that act like jerks, and use parsers to do so.
    (5)
    Last edited by HyoMinPark; 09-07-2017 at 04:30 AM.
    Sage | Astrologian | Dancer

    마지막 날 널 찾아가면
    마지막 밤 기억하길

    Hyomin Park#0055

  5. #5
    Player
    Mycow8me's Avatar
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    Tolby Seyfert
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    Cactuar
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    Blacksmith Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by HyoMinPark View Post
    I'm just trying to show players that this unnecessary hostile attitude that has been displayed by some of the anti-parser people in this thread, among others that have popped up on the forum in the past, is just as toxic than the few individuals that act like jerks, and use parsers to do so.
    No I'm not content with a party that continues to fail to meet enrage but I'm also not content with finding the weakest link. We have different mindsets, that's all. I don't go around asking for DPS numbers or bother with others DPS. Implementing group parsers is cumbersome since things like act already exist.

    I'm trying to explain to you that individual player improvement should be prioritized or the ultimate goal of a parse, if you immediately start to analyze for the problem or "weakest link" among "group DPS" you are falling into the antiparser communities trap. You should strive for individual player improvement at their own discretion and a toggleable, realtime, dps parser is the best way to go about it. Again we disagree but its whatever at this point.

    Edit: Honestly PS4 players have nothing, the thread should have stayed on topic for them.
    (0)
    Last edited by Mycow8me; 09-07-2017 at 04:50 AM.

  6. #6
    Player
    AlexionSkylark's Avatar
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    Alexion Skylark
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    Behemoth
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    Conjurer Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by HyoMinPark View Post
    that includes finding if there are any "weakest links" and working on focused improvement for that member, or replacing them.
    SE will NEVER, EVER, EVER endorse that kind of thought process. EVER.
    (2)

  7. #7
    Player
    Taika's Avatar
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    Character
    Purple Rain
    World
    Sophia
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    Arcanist Lv 32
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark View Post
    SE will NEVER, EVER, EVER endorse that kind of thought process. EVER.
    I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying. Maybe try more caps?

    Edit: To actually contribute, this is a thing that has already happened, is currently happening, and will always happen. There being an official parser compared to current unofficial one won't change that in any way. Exact same things in player behaviour are still forbidden or allowed. What having an official parser does is make this process visible for everyone, and as such more fair. If someone gets kicked, they will know it was because they were underperforming and aren't left to wonder, or if someone is unfairly accused of underperforming they can prove those accusations wrong.

    Funny story, just last week, I was accused of underperforming in OS3, "looking for a carry". I did some silly mistakes (being nervous running in a pug), but I was also the top DPS. The party might have kicked me, but didn't (probably thanks to someone parsing!). With an official parser, I would never have had to face that threat in the first place.
    (9)
    Last edited by Taika; 09-07-2017 at 08:05 AM.

  8. #8
    Player
    HyoMinPark's Avatar
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    Hyomin Park
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    Cactuar
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    Sage Lv 92
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark View Post
    SE will NEVER, EVER, EVER endorse that kind of thought process. EVER.
    SE cannot force a particular playstyle upon the playerbase as a whole. They don't endorse or condone things like harassment, but they can't force players to adhere to a singular playstyle (e.g., forcing players to carry bad or lazy players). You don't like the removal of the weakest link playstyle, and that's fine. I prefer to work on improvement unless it's obvious there is nothing that can be done to improve performance, and at that point, you have to remove the problem if you ever hope to progress. Ultimately, however, whatever SE "condones" or "doesn't condone" has zero baring on how the community plays this game.

    Don't like Min-maxing Mentality? Don't do it, and don't hang around people who do. Don't like to carry people? Then don't. Want to coddle people and their feelings, and not remove them from a group even though they're hindering progression? You do you. No one will force you to not carry people, or to parse. But you also cannot force other players to carry, or to not parse just because you don't like it.

    Whether this was your point or premise in your post, I have no idea. Since it was so incredibly vague and not in any way constructive/contributing to the discussion at hand at all. Though, I am curious as to where you saw that I said SE does condone (and should condone) the playstyle of myself or others who are "pro-parser." That inference is lost on me.
    (8)
    Last edited by HyoMinPark; 09-07-2017 at 07:59 AM.

  9. #9
    Player
    AlexionSkylark's Avatar
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    Alexion Skylark
    World
    Behemoth
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    Conjurer Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by HyoMinPark View Post
    snip
    The point and premise of my post is that there won't EVER be an official in-game parser in this game that lets you see how others in your party are performing. The game is meant to be inclusive, not exclusive. They have a clear stance on that kind of behavior, which is exactly why they adopt this "don't ask, don't tell" policy. They want us to keep our performance to ourselves, or tight-knit static groups at most (possibly because then it is impossible to control). Other than that, it is not nor will never be OK to shun, kick from party or badmouth fellow players for reasons of performance.

    SE, Yoshi-P and the devs as a whole take the official stance that they are AGAINST this behavior of "removing weakest links". Based on all official responses given to this parser subject, that is tantamount to harassment. So you and everyone else can quite surely give up hoping they will ever provide an official way of judging your fellow party member's performance. Again, SE won't ever, EVER, EVER endorse this thought process (by providing an in-game tool to be used for that purpose). This entire discussion is pointless and will ammount to absolutely nothing. As all others that came before.

    I hope I made myself clear now.
    (3)
    Last edited by AlexionSkylark; 09-07-2017 at 12:03 PM.

  10. #10
    Player
    Lazaruz's Avatar
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    Jun 2017
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    Character
    Sayo Nagae
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by HyoMinPark View Post
    I have never kicked on account of "low numbers" or to "stroke my own e-peen." I don't need that sort of validation in life, thanks.
    And this is a perfect capsule of why we cannot have a debate regarding parsing as a tool to improve your own performance.
    Because while you claim to not have kicked people for "low numbers", I know another MMO where the late game scene is absolutely infested with that type of attitude, quite possibly in part because the developers gave everyone free reign to do it. And that game is WoW.

    Perform bellow X number? Kicked and blacklisted
    Perform bellow X class? Kicked and blacklisted
    Just barely bellow the "max" output for your class? kicked and blacklisted

    But dont think they'll just remove you quietly. People will make damn sure, and in great detail, that you know how much you "suck", and should quit playing.

    And that is despite the fact that you still managed the content. Alot of people just get pissy because Ted who performed 500 bellow what's "ideal" maybe added 30 more seconds to the fight.

    So forgive me for punishing a small but very vocal minority, when I've witnessed through experience that people in general cannot be trusted with something like a group parser, unless it's atleast under the condition of "dont get caught harassing people with it"
    (1)
    Last edited by Lazaruz; 09-07-2017 at 04:35 AM.

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