Question on DF expectations

[Felis]

A good run is if nobody die, if nobody start to daydream, if the tank pull 2 or 3 groups that die fast, if boss fights will be smooth like a hot knife in butter

[tinythinker]

I refuse to carry people through content and let them pollute the DF even further. It sucks having to wait for new tanks and healers sometimes, but people need to know when they are bringing the team down so they can fix it. If I am playing like shit, I expect similar treatment.

So what qualifies as being "shit" and "polluting" the purity of DF?

If I forget or am just out of practice on a boss fight, and there are some close calls or a single wipe, does that qualify? Does it qualify if I told the party at the start that it's been a while? If the healer or tank can't do massive pulls, is that player ruining the run because you have to go through the instance more slowly?

I am not dismissing or mocking your position, but it's very vague. That's why I tried to give examples in the OP. "Know your stuff" and "play reasonably well" can mean very different things to different people. I personally don't think the above makes a player's effort shit, but I can only speak for me. I know for a fact that many players would think such situations are hellish crosses they must bear. Which is why I think it's good for people talk honestly about what they expect.

[micropanther7]

What do you think is acceptable?

For example, is getting a super-fast speed run the measure of a "good run"? If a run takes 10-15 minutes longer to work with party members who are making a serious effort yet make some mistakes and learn, is that a "bad run"? Do you have criteria for a good run other than speed? And is that extra 10-15 minutes worth dropping back into queue?

If someone plays the game intermittently, and doesn't have all of the best rotations or dungeons mechanics memorized for each possible roulette, does that make them lazy, dumb, or dead weight? Even if they are constantly casting and open to advice? (Remember, even intermittent players will eventually get jobs to max level and accumulate lots of possible runs for DF to choose from; they can't randomly get something they don't totally remember and go watch a video right then when DF pops.)

Would you be more or less likely to work with a player or to just drop group if they mention up front they are not going to be able to go full tilt and may need help oe advice? This means even if you queued in hoping for quick run before you logged off and this person is "inconveniencing" you? And, is it reasonable then to queue for DF if you are in a rush?

Does it seem realistic to expect getting a party full of people who are all familiar with every aspect of an instance and their job who are going full out? Is not a party with people who at least know/are good at 60-80% of their job a pretty good outcome of a random group in a contemporary MMORPG?

I don't ask these things because of personally being insulted or having to deal with drama in parties, but just to get a sense of where the community is on DF. I've seen hundreds of stories in threads here and elsewhere with many views expressed and am curious to see people's opinions when they aren't complaining about a particular run.

Only speaking for myself here... it's best not to have ANY expectations, once that queue pops you get what you're given I would rather people take their time and be chilled out, you don't have to be perfect, but if you try that means something. A wipe does not matter, more importantly I find people best learn when you aren't raging at them for one wipe, for not rolling for an item within 0.1 nanoseconds... I'd take less skilled, more positive, laid back people any day than over some salty, raging person that knows what they're doing.

When I was doing Doma Castle yesterday, the dps was giving the tank a hard time... he was a flippin' good tank and all, he just forgot about a few extra mobs and we wiped. I accidentally pulled and apologised, he was so cool about it, I'd run with him all day everyday If I ever Raided though, I would expect stricter measures, and appreciate why people get upset who've put time and effort into learning, and just want to farm :/ Hence why I would never raid, I know my reflexes aren't good enough But in normal dungeons and msq trials, some people really need to chill, if you're not happy with the level of skill in DF, you're gonna get teasy really quickly, not everyone is on the same skill level

[tinythinker]

I use the duty finder because I want to run the content I have selected through it.
Sometimes this is just getting a clear, sometimes this means learning a new fight, sometimes this just means running whatever to get the tokens.

Do I expect people taking the Expert roulette to "gtg fast, clear in 10 mins"? Nope
Do I expect people taking the Trials roulette to know the fight Blindfolded? Nope

I do expect people that pick DF to have the correct gear equipped, to understand the basics and mechanics of their class.
And I expect people to be honest about their experience.
First time doing an instance? Say so, the bonus is giving it away anyways that you're new.
I simply don't expect anything from DF because as stated above, everyone and his pony joins it.

This also means:

1. Don't force your tank to run faster than he's comfortable with
2. Don't force your healer to DPS if he isn't comfortable with it
3. Don't punish DPS for performing badly

Instead ask people if they are open in doing so. Teach them what they are missing.
Too often I get negative cupcakes that ruin the experience for the whole group

You really can't wait those 10 additional minutes?
Then I'm sorry, but the DF is not for you.

Can we count those who have been away or don't run certain content very often among those who NEED to speak up? I've seen some players rant in various venues that if you have jobs at 70 you must have everything down perfect and know it all. But I've also seen many players in DF who come and go for various reasons and are rusty or who may have only been in an instance once or twice (or not for months). And they don't all have a returner's crown (or it wore off). I think these players may be embarrassed to speak up that they are not confident in doing big pulls or that they don't have particular boss fights down pat. Yet they have some baseline skill and knowledge that could be encouraged or developed.

And yes, in my humble opinion if you are using DF solo or with one friend it shouldn't be a shock that you may need to take an extra 10-15 minutes to complete even if everyone is constantly casting and has a firm understanding of at least their 5-7 primary job skills. Why try to force speed runs rather than just ask if that's cool at the beginning? The former often leads to wipes, which leads to bickering, pouting, people throwing a tantrum to be kicked, people taking the drop penalty and sitting in queue again, waiting for new players to join in-progress, and votes to abandon, which make the run even longer, less pleasant, and turns new and experienced players off from the game. It isn't just your time or my time that is at stake. I totally understand being frustrated when things could be better/smoother, but if you have to have that fast clear why not run a pre-made or at least ask the DF group first if that's cool? I also get leaving when it's just too stupid, but again, that's what this thread is about? Where is that line?

It's funny, but, for all the horror stories floating around there's a large segment of players who want to learn, practice, get tokens, meet people, etc, in DF but they are caught between those with the "this better be fast and perfect" mentality and the "how dare you point out I am only using the first skill my character learned" mentality.

[Nora_of_Mira]

My expectations change depending on the roulette I'm queuing for. I only queue as tank/DPS depending on how much time I have to wait around.

*Leveling roulette: If the dungeon is below level 50, I'll tank slower and take 1 pack of mobs at a time unless the party shows exceptional DPS. Higher than 50, I'll usually tank a lot more mobs, depending on the iLevel of the healer. As DPS, I expect the tank to do the same. We tons of tools at our disposal at 50 and above, we should use them.

*Expert roulette: pull everything, destroy everything. As DPS, I want to destroy everything as fast as I can and test out different rotations. As tank, I want to be able to handle as much as I can and provide a smooth ride for everyone. In doing so, I expect DPS to be laying down the nice damage.

*Trial roulette: Anything goes. I expect there to be new people every now and then and thats okay. These trials only need simple instructions for new people anyway, its not a big deal if we wipe a couple times.

I never try to speed run everything, only content I think it is appropriate, like Expert roulette, 50/60 roulette, or farm parties.

[Avatre]

My only expectation for any roulette(other than Mentor) is for people to do their job per whatever role that they join as. For it to go smoothly if no one is new to the duty, and for people to ask for help if they need it.

For Mentor roulette on the other hand, I expect other mentors to be willing to help with WHATEVER they get through it, and not throw a fit when people refuse to kick them because they refuse to help/take the penalty for leaving themselves.

[LunarEmerald]

This is what I would consider the ideal dungeon run

Big pulls, everybody aoes, healer contributes to dps as much as they can, nobody dies, tank positions mobs and bosses intelligently, aoe limit breaks used on trash, people know when to ignore adds in boss fights and focus down the boss, high dps that melts everything.

The add thing is a big one. When you're spending more time fighting adds that continuously spawn than damaging the boss, there's a problem. You should just kill the boss asap.

[tinythinker]

If a run, for me, normally takes 15-20 minutes, adding another 10 to 15 minutes means a run of 25 to 35 minutes. That's nearly two runs that could have been done in the time to get one done. While I wouldn't leave, I'd not be happy either. My time was wasted for no other reason other than someone was potentially too lazy to learn their class.

Playing the game on and off is fine and isn't the issue. I don't ride a bike every day. I don't suddenly forget it, either. You don't learn rotations per dungeon- you learn rotations per situation and most of those situations are melee- 4 or more? AoE!

We're also not talking top-of-the-line DPS, either. Just, actually AoE when AoE is needed. Most people that do "bad DPS" in dungeons do things like single target DPS, even with 8+ mobs up because 'they are a melee DPS and melee DPS can't AoE.' They can. They're actually better than the casters in the right hands, they're just not sustainable. However, you don't need sustain DPS when it comes to AoE. I don't even mind smaller pulls- just don't stop.

I'm more likely to help someone who actually asks. Most people don't ask and if you say anything, they go full hostile. Which makes me want to leave by AFKing for 10 minutes, getting vote dismissed, or vote dismissing them myself. I don't have the time to babysit an onry player, or even a player that says that line about their sub, acting like it's somehow more important than the other 3 people they are in party with.

The beauty of it is that you don't need to know every aspect. Do you know how to AoE? Can you dodge bad? Can you keep up with the rest of the group? That's really all you need.

When it comes to me, I have the mentality of always go ham and don't practice bad habits. It's really easy to enforce bad habits and very hard to break them. I generally hope anyone else using DF has the same expectations to that degree. It really sucks getting people that refuse to AoE; it makes me work harder, be it I'm on WHM or RDM. Also, when I run roulettes, I'm not there for the social aspect of the game; I want tomestones and I want them as quickly as I am able to gather. Pleasantries are, well, 'pleasant' (not a fan of people, so this is subjective for me), but I want to reach the end of the dungeon ASAP.

I note your bolded portions, but I would throw some things out to consider. Not to launch some long debate, but just things that occur to me (that you may already agree with) for people reading the thread to reflect on.

1. It isn't just *your time* or *my time*. That new player, or long-time player who isn't as practiced or skilled, or the one who has performance anxiety, etc, etc is also taking their time to get a clear, earn tomes and gear drops, and maybe also to enjoy the art, the music, and meet people. They have a different capacity for how fast they can run, or maybe they have different priorities for the run even if they *could* qualify in terms of gear, skill, experience, etc. for a group trying for a world record time for that instance. Now you called out lazy players who you feel waste your time, and I agree that if a player just doesn't try that sucks and should be called out, but there's lots of reasons for slower runs that don't involve laziness.

2. Sequential repetition is better than sporadic repetition for learning. To use your example of riding a bike, if I start to learn, but then don't try to ride again for a month, and get back on, the ride will be wobbly. If I start to learn to ride a back, and do it every day for a couple of weeks, it will become muscle memory. That's as far as the bike analogy works, as there are many types of memory involved in learning jobs and instances. Applying that to the game, if you have used DF or run with premades in 5-10 instances per week over six months, the odds are good that this sequential repetition has burned your rotations and where to stand in fights into your brain. If you play a few weeks doing the occassional DF, then are away a bit, then come back while, then are gone again, you will still of course improve, but, the improvement will be irregular (some things you do or remember well, others you don't) and it will take longer. Ironically, a toxic DF atmosphere, whoever is to blame, discourages sequential repetition, getting a sense of bearing, and getting value for your mistakes. (People learn faster if they feel it is OK to make mistakes once in a while and if they are open to friendly corrections and advice.)

3. Not all bosses are the same with mechanics. One of the reasons I and other players can jump into DF and do a halfway decent job even if we haven't seen that instance in a long time is because yes, many mechanics and markers are mostly the same, AoE puddles-cones-columns are bad, and you always have to be out of the AoE well before their animation triggers. However, players get bored, so SE puts in special tricks, traps, and markers for many bosses, and yes, if you can't remember the details of a boss fight, that means you can hurt or wipe your party because of that one-off mechanic. It happens. The question is how the returning/intermittent player reacts and how the rest of the party responds.

[Mirateski]

If people speak up and are willing to learn, the run could take the full lockout and I'd only be a little bit upset. I once took five minutes explaining to a sch in snowcloak what cross class skills were and teaching them how to set protect, and I wasn't even mad because they listened to me.

On the other hand if you're an asshole about not knowing your job/refusing to use job skills, I'm gonna kick you if I have backup, or leave if I don't. I don't have time for jerks or lazy people, and I have things to do while I wait out the penalty.

Of course, there's something amazing about a really fast run, but I never expect it.

[bswpayton]

Can we count those who have been away or don't run certain content very often among those who NEED to speak up? I've seen some players rant in various venues that if you have jobs at 70 you must have everything down perfect and know it all.

asking can really be an inncovience sometimes it takes a bit to type out that every time you go into a dungeon. The best thing to do is play how you play and adjust accordingly, I know every dungeon for instance in the game is cappable of being big pulled. So I go in with the mentality to get the dungeon over with in 20 mins. That being said if a healer cant handle it then I will silently go back to the start and just do small pulls its really that simply I dont understand why people get all bent out of shape really. The only time I get mad is if I just don recieve a single heal at all and as someone whom plays all rolls, I know when I healer is using their skills or not.