Question on DF expectations

[tinythinker]

What do you think is acceptable?

For example, is getting a super-fast speed run the measure of a "good run"? If a run takes 10-15 minutes longer to work with party members who are making a serious effort yet make some mistakes and learn, is that a "bad run"? Do you have criteria for a good run other than speed? And is that extra 10-15 minutes worth dropping back into queue?

If someone plays the game intermittently, and doesn't have all of the best rotations or dungeons mechanics memorized for each possible roulette, does that make them lazy, dumb, or dead weight? Even if they are constantly casting and open to advice? (Remember, even intermittent players will eventually get jobs to max level and accumulate lots of possible runs for DF to choose from; they can't randomly get something they don't totally remember and go watch a video right then when DF pops.)

Would you be more or less likely to work with a player or to just drop group if they mention up front they are not going to be able to go full tilt and may need help oe advice? This means even if you queued in hoping for quick run before you logged off and this person is "inconveniencing" you? And, is it reasonable then to queue for DF if you are in a rush?

Does it seem realistic to expect getting a party full of people who are all familiar with every aspect of an instance and their job who are going full out? Is not a party with people who at least know/are good at 60-80% of their job a pretty good outcome of a random group in a contemporary MMORPG?

I don't ask these things because of personally being insulted or having to deal with drama in parties, but just to get a sense of where the community is on DF. I've seen hundreds of stories in threads here and elsewhere with many views expressed and am curious to see people's opinions when they aren't complaining about a particular run.

[LunaFaye]

Alright well maybe we need to start at the beginning tho. Years ago, the duty finder was for practicing trials and primals. Nobody that ever joined a DF party to that time, thought or counted on actually clearing the content.

Then it changed, all the sudden duty finder became the "go there if you know the fight/mechanic" tool. Practice was from now on performed via FC members only or PF, knowing damn well that you are not going to clear it. Guess we adopted that from the JP servers or at least some of it.

Now we are back to "everybody and their pony is joining DF and it's great for carries" mentality. While I don't mind new players, or players new to specific fights, as long as they can listen/understand the explanations and are willing to adopt. Sadly and I have to be debby downer on that one, the last 2 years we having more and more people flooding in, mostly from WoW (sry to say it but well it's the truth), that can't be bothered to read the chat or do any kind of preparation before joining a fight.

And they don't have too, because as I just mentioned, there will be always skilled veterans that are willing to carry the dead. I for example are not one of these people, if I see a person not even trying, I will for example jump of a platform and drag the other healer right with me, wiping the party intentionally so that Mr Carry Me! is not going to get his/her clear. But again, most people don't care, they will just go ahead clear it for them and don't think anything about that, supporting that kind of behavior but then complain after a while, that the DF is a horrible place, and it wouldn't be if people would have acted right from the start.

I've kicked so many people, I think if that would be a crime, I probably be in court every day lol. Not that I am proud of it, but sometimes you just can't deal with stupid and their best friend, because we all know stupid never comes alone.

Here's an example before people just tell me I am that elitist axxxxxx. Maybe then you will see why I do things the way I do.

I queue for trial roulette, get susano regular on my healer. Tank new, Healer new, 2 dps new. The other tanks as well as me trying to explain the mechanics, before we know it, new tank pulled already but of course without tank stance or dps stance on, but hollowed ground pop'd. Looses aggro/hate right to the ninja, ninja gets 1 shotted.

So that means I have now to waste mp already instead of being able to dps, because I have to raise 2 people, which wasn't necessary to begin with.

Next pull, the not new tank pulls, and mid way in "new" tank finds his tank stance and uses provoke. The new healer wasn't doing anything tho, not dps'ing nor healing, just standing around. It nearly looked like they are both the same person on 2 different accounts, trying to multibox the fight, leaving me to solo heal. Not a problem but then all the sudden they start medica II spam as well as Cure III spam, when nobody was taking any dmg?

Then we get to the sword phase, new tank clicks the sword but not the buttons after, leading us to wipe 3 times. 4th time old tank does the sword, new tank can't be bothered to pick up the orbs, and we end up with lots of avoidable aoe dmg towards the group, but we didn't die because well I did prepare as usual.

Long story short we wiped at least 3 more times, and I kicked the new tank and my friend kicked the new healer right after.

That's what I hate. If now the tank would have tried, or read at least the chat, same for the other healer I would have said nothing. But joining DF without even having the slightest clue on how to play your job, or knowledge of the fight/mechanics but being in one of the most crucial roles (tank + heals) , because you wanted to skip the long queue is not acceptable. I don't care if others tolerate/accept it, but I think if you like wasting others people time, use the party finder to do it.

Edit: dungeons I really don't care about, I barely join them unless SE makes me, but here again, if you want to speed run stuff, talk to your healer and know your job. If you don't want to speed run, at least announce it at the beginning, so everybody can get on the same page.

If a dps is slacking but at least trying, no problem might give advice. If a dps just auto attacks, especially during speed runs, kick the moment it becomes available, there will be always 1 dps in queue, that will appreciate their slot.

[Jas710]

The long dps queues I think contributes to people hopping in on their tank jobs, and most don't know or care to grasp the job since it's not their main. Healers, same thing.

The larger issue is that the culture in this game unfortunately encourages everything to be clocked, whether it was meant to reduce server stress or feed into the instant gratification crowd. Having a visible timer is what kills any hope of learning mechanics. Look at all the "must know fight", "must have watched vid", etc. The days of learning as you go and/or being patient is now the exception. Your only way around this is to find other players that share your expectations and tapping them for runs. Lots of players share the same views; it's just a matter of seeking them out.

The recent announcement that a cross-server friends list is coming up should help alleviate those whining "tales from the DF" threads.

[bswpayton]

Alright well maybe we need to start at the beginning tho.

.

Runs like this are not the norm and doesnt happen often by any means at all its an exaggeration. But to answer the op question, I dont go in with any expectations aside from how I play, If im tankin Im gona pull everything per usual, pop hg, living dead , hologom and the really big pulls for safety. If this doesnt work then I will proceed to do boring baby pulls and the dungeon will take 30 mins with one wipe.

I dont consider it a bad run just not how I wanted things to go but not a bad run tho. If the healer is still nice ill give them a comm but if they dont do much to redeem themselves Ill jsut get out asap and get ready for the next instance. I personally dont like 30 min runs , but I mean I know some people just gona take it slow but its whatever. Its been a very long time sense ive spent like 50 40 mins in a dungeon that is what Id call a horrible run and those are rare and far in between. But one wipe runs really arent a big deal to me just one of those is what it is things.

[LunaFaye]

Runs like this are not the norm and doesnt happen often by any means at all its an exaggeration.

Keep telling yourself that, the last 2 years that's exactly what's happening with DF and "new" players. Jump potions now make it even worse. The day you ran 500+ trials, because you were that bored, come back here and let me know if you didn't see that as the norm.

[Gemina]

A superfast run is exactly that: A superfast run. It is, without a better sense for the word, a 'standard' run and not what I would call good or bad.

A good run, is a run I feel good about. I'm enjoying it, and I really don't care how long it takes to get through it. These can be what some people would deem a bad a run. I had three sprouts in Aurum Vale the other day, and the run easily took about 40 minutes. Most players would have abandoned them, but it was probably the most fun I've had there in 50+ clears because they were all polite and wanted to learn.

In contrast, I've had speed runs go to crap when someone makes a mistake. I even had one guy call out a dark who was 100% in Grit, but waited until after the dungeon was cleared to do so. This clear took 13 minutes despite the lower DPS from the DRK, and it got stupid dramatic so fast. It ruined the run despite the fact we just cleared it.

My only expectation from a DF run is that players respect one another and know the very basics of their role.

[Anienai]

My only expectation from a DF run is that players respect one another and know the very basics of their role.

d-(**)

I agree.

[MoroMurasaki]

I had a DF Ala Mhigo run I think like 2 days ago that was over insanely fast. The PLD tank pulled until he couldn't any more (including the super pull from the first boss to the second) and the BRD and DRG were on top of their AoE. No one died, tank held threat, only actual mistake I can remember is him enexplicably twirling the final boss and cleaving the BRD and I with the tankbuster knocking us both into 3 digit HP. I got all 3 comms too!

I still don't consider that a good run because other than me saying hi at the beginning of the dungeon everyone was silent. It made it feel more like a solo run of Healer Hell 3: Tank Sprinty AF than an MMO.

Ultimately I am here for the social aspect of the game otherwise I could just be playing anything that doesn't cost me $20 a month.

On the flip side I have had some new players who need a little help but are willing to listen and that's great. My favorites are new tanks in 4man or new cohealers in 8man; I will mom the heck out of them if they let me.

I suppose there is still a certain skill floor at which point I am just done with people but I certainly think it's quite a bit lower than the requirements of the average player. I mean look at that Ala Mhigo run - that tank never did anything to tell me he was pulling to full stops, there are a ton of DF healers out there that could not have kept up with him.

In summary I feel like you need 3 things for success in DF; a rudimentary understanding of your role and skills, an openness to advice about encounters and your role/skills and a good attitude. Read chat. Respond. Even on PS4 you can shoot me a 'k' or '?' pretty easily.

Sadly there are people out there in posession of only 2, 1 or even 0 of these qualaties. Those are the ones I can't stand.

[ilea]

Though I do believe there's a few community "standards" that everyone agrees is good play (e.g. start pulls in Tank Stance; don't regen pre-pull; AoE groups of 3+ mobs), outside of those, I don't think there are universal expectations. People say they want to communicate, to have clean runs, and to be polite and forgiving of mistakes. But your average DF run is going to be about 20 minutes long, have two or three people that say hi (if you're lucky), and maybe a "ty" at the end.

IMO, there's two types of good runs:
- A fast and clean run where people know what they're doing.
- A middling run where people talk a lot

I'd be happy with less skilled play if people were friendly or took advice. That's a rarity in DF, though.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I have no issues working with people willing to learn but my patience runs incredibly thin for people either switching roles to get better queue times or just expecting me to carry them. One such example is when I had to yell at a PLD to turn on Shield Oath three times after they pulled in Stone Vigil and wouldn't look at chat. After the second wipe where they couldn't hold aggro, my friend put up the Vote Dismiss. Similar incident happened with my first Shinryu. WAR died to Tidal Wave five out of six pulls then had the audacity to claim the healer was being rude when she last patience. This after she explained the mechanics repeatedly and he just refused to move. It's not difficult to tell who's trying compared to how has no idea what they're doing and just looking for a carry.