Boss Autoattack Damage and FFXIV's Tanking Meta

[BluexBird]

So ever since I started playing this game 2 years ago, I've both heard from a lot of people and seen in several videos, that the FFXIV tanking meta is different than most other MMOs. I'm just gonna quote something off of one of Xeno's video, but this is by no means something I've heard just from him:

"The way you tank in FFXIV is completely different than a lot of other MMOs. This game is all about Mechanic Damaging abilities or tank busters. The encounters in this game are very scripted, and the bosses will do massive damage on the tank only for a second, in short predictable bursts. This is mechanic damage. [...] ...If a boss is not hitting you with Mechanic Damaging abilities, then you are just receiving autoattacks - fluff damage. When the boss uses Mechanic Damaging abilities, you mitigate them with a cooldown.

The video then goes on to say something along the likes of "if your healers can't heal you through autoattack damage, then you need to get new healers".

Flash-forward to today's raids, where you have:

Alte Roite killing me with random tail slaps (not talking about the one before Twin Bolt/Clamp)
Catastrophe dropping me low enough so that I end up dying to the Dimensional Wave after the first tentacles come out
Halicarnassus doing 17k autoattacks and eventually killing me because they're hitting for 17k when I'm not mitigating

Given the above situations, is it still fair to say the tanking meta remains the same? Like, even during the Alexander raids, I remember being in a couple of situations where my HP would drop very low just through autoattacks, and by the time the healers decided to respond it would be too late.

I mean, just yesterday I was doing V3S, and the boss just randomly ends up hitting me with a 22k critical autoattack, which killed me. I have Vengeance running for the first Queen's Waltz and Dimensional Wave, but it feels like that's more for the autoattack damage I keep receiving. After Vengeance ends, I feel reluctant using another cooldown, because I like having something for after The Game, and have Convalescence up for the next Critical Hit.

But according to all the things I've been hearing about tanking, apparently I shouldn't be having to worry about using cooldowns for autoattacks. What is everyone's opinion on this? Is the meta changing to where tanks should start worrying about autoattacks?

[shao32]

as longer ppl can survive and hold agro without using the tank stance the meta will remain the same

[aqskerorokero]

tsk...the meta never bothers me.....if my hp is lower than 50% during autoattack, the party can enjoy full time tank stance no matter what tank I play, in 4 men, 8 men, raids etc.

[Legion88]

Alte Roite killing me with random tail slaps (not talking about the one before Twin Bolt/Clamp)
Catastrophe dropping me low enough so that I end up dying to the Dimensional Wave after the first tentacles come out
Halicarnassus doing 17k autoattacks and eventually killing me because they're hitting for 17k when I'm not mitigating

Alte Roite is fully scripted, no random abilities, no random damage income.
Catastrophe is also fully scripted with a high amount of mechanics to handle and high mechanical damage, nothing random.
Halicarnassus is designed around the tank buster Critical Hit and it seems that most of her abilities have the possibility to crit unlike that of previous bosses who can't crit outside of their autoattacks. Crit seems to be the design of herself.

[Hierro]

I feel OP's being too conservative with his CDs. If you're MTing as WAR for OS3, you should feel alright using holmgang whenever you can, and awarness+another cooldown. Heck, you've even got the choice to switch to defiance for those critical hit tank busters to supplement with inner beast. Given those tank busters occur 7 times in a fight, there's nothing wrong switching to defiance just for those situations to inner beast, especially in between zerk windows.

That said, you can totally use CDs outside of tank busters when there's a lot of outgoing damage when MTing in deliverance.

[ScotchyScotch]

For O3S in particular, if you Awareness+Raw Intuition the first Critical Hit, then you have 20% reduction on incoming physical damage through the first Spellblade Holy. If you're really having issues you can also stack Vengeance with it. Because Awareness+RI is so OP for Crit Hit this leaves Rampart and Vengeance up for other damage mitigation throughout the fight.

Likewise, Raw Intuition can also be used to mitigate the vast majority of the Tail Swipes in O1S.

In O2S you've got rampart up for every double frontal cleave, which is really the only heavy damage that the meatball puts out. Either you are using your mitigation kit properly and your healers are bad, or you need to reconsider your pattern of cooldown usage.

[aleph_null]

As a pld off tank in o1s I do cover + rampart for the two wyrm tails before first twinbolt, after first blaze, and after breath wing. Except for the last one, rampart will last until the twinbolts following them, and I'll make sure to have 100 gauge by these times to sheltron + intervention the other tank (who will only take twinbolt and the upcoming auto attacks). So far it worked really well and my healers only needed to do 3 asp benefics (once on me and twice on the main tank). The rest of the damage are covered by ess dignities and embraces (and aoe heals).

I wouldn't count wyrm tails as auto attacks since they are scripted and afaik can't crit, so they're sort of mini busters or cleaves (except they're single target attacks unlike say a9s frontal cleaves). There have been encounters in the past that have hard hitting skills without telegraph or cast bar, and generally these fights could be a pain to optimize since instead of using cds when you see some cast bars you need to literally count gcds or seconds after certain mechanics, or look at ACT's encounter timer.

I haven't done enough meticulous plannings for o2s-o3s so I can't say how much the auto attack crits and random mechanics in o3s affect healing. Tank cd usage should stay the same regardless of crits, so your healers can predict the incoming damage and react accordingly). I think conditional usage of lustrates (use lustrate here or there if tank drops too low, or use energy drain otherwise) should be enough, or if it isn't then the ast should do a gcd single target heal.

[Canadane]

I see your concerns but while you may he getting hit for 22k damage at random, you have significantly more HP than that. Nothing about the tank meta has changed.

[BluexBird]

Alte Roite is fully scripted, no random abilities, no random damage income.

I know, sorry. I said "random" because it's not the same as the double tail slaps that you get after the downburst mechanics. There is a point in the fight where Alte Roite spawns his fireballs, but before he casts Downburst, he throws out a single tail slap attack. And it just pisses me off if I die to that because honestly, I don't feel like I should be having to use a cooldown just for that one tail slap. Especially considering I'm about to not take damage for over 10 seconds because it'll just be whole lot of sliding around.

I feel OP's being too conservative with his CDs.

I'm not. I use Holmgang for the second critical hit, so that I don't have to use anything other than Awareness/Raw Intuition at the start. I then use Vengeance before the Spellblade: Holy mechanics, which lasts me through Queen's Waltz as well. Thing is, I then have the option of using Rampart after Vengeance ends, but a lot of it will get wasted because after Dimensional Wave, she barely even autoattacks anymore. So I save it after The Game, Holmgang the next Critical Hit, and then use Convalescence to help with Dimensional Wave and tanking the boss during White Flame.

So what I'm saying is, I feel like I'm having to worry about mitigating autoattack damage. Which, according to the tank meta, I shouldn't be having to do.

Likewise, Raw Intuition can also be used to mitigate the vast majority of the Tail Swipes in O1S.

In O2S you've got rampart up for every double frontal cleave, which is really the only heavy damage that the meatball puts out. Either you are using your mitigation kit properly and your healers are bad, or you need to reconsider your pattern of cooldown usage.

I start O1S with Thrill and Rampart. I do use Raw Intuition for the tail slaps after Roar, but then I have to use Vengeance for Twin Bolt. And then all I have is Convalescence until Rampart comes up, and THAT'S the period I'm talking about.

For O2S, I start of OTing usually. Then after I tank swap, I need a cooldown for the cone attack. Then it's tentacles. Now the thing is, right before Epicenter hits, the boss is still autoattacking me, and I just feel like if I don't use a cooldown for the supposed "fluff damage", I'll just end up dying to something else.



Basically, what I'm trying to find out is... should I just save my cooldowns for the tank busters and not give a crap about anything else and call out my healers if I happen to die? Or should I be doing something to stop my HP from ever getting that low, using the healing that is already being given to me?

[Skye_]

Most tanks don't use CDs in DPS stance to mitigate autos better. They see a vid or learn DPS stance is what you do, but not whats behind it. Their CDs just sit while they pew pew pew. Healers either get behind and the tank dies or wastes CDs healing instead of DPSing. Most of the base tries to emulate top groups, but don't play like top jobs.

Honestly, I'd like to see someone crunch the numbers. Which is better net party DPS effect? 20% increase of Tank in DPS stance with a healer blowing CDs to heal him. Or a tank in tank stance allowing the healers to DPS more. I say, healers, because it affects both healers

My hypothesis is the net party dps would go up in raid if tanks stayed in tank stance allowing both healers to DPS more.