SE, can you fix RDM's aggro?

[Zfz]

...pull the boss in DPS stance...This obsession with stance dancing...

It's not an obsession with stance dancing. Stance dancing means a tank knows when to be in what stance, meaning the tank will always open an encounter in tank stance. A tank that opens with DPS stance while the encounter clearly requires a tank, has an obsession with dps not with stance dancing. In other words, the player fails as a tank.

Although lately there's a trend on the forums here and elsewhere that the party needs to "work together" (see the thread about regen) so the mobs are handed on a plate to the tank and the tank can just waltz in and do whatever he likes. "Working together" means everyone put in the utmost effort, which includes the tank. But I guess those tanks today are too pampered to do even the most basic of tanking duties.

If a tank starts in tanking stance, tries to establish proper enmity lead before going into DPS stance, then we can talk about "working together".

That said, when I'm on my RDM I never open the moment the tank pulls. As much as tanks have a DPS obessions, there's also this "opener" obsession among DPS jobs. Unless it's Savage/Trial content, there's no point disrupting a pull with powerful openers, especially on a RDM.

[JunseiKei]

I can't have Diversion every pull guys...

Sure some of the time, but it's impossible for me to have it every pull. And when I do one scatter and the tank can't get hate off of me from the ONE scatter, I don't think Diversion would have made a difference anyways.

AoE pulls shouldn't be an issue, unless you're sitting at 90/90 on a fresh pull and triple enchanted moulinet. 120s is more than enough for bosses, though and RDMs that correctly AoE DPS as well as staggers lucid dream (also 120s seconds). Scatter shouldn't generate more enmity than anything a tank does unless they are simply not AoE pulling. Then it's on them, probably. Me going full ham, I've always ripped hate and I don't like dying much; 25% main stat reduction has made me want to be safer, even if it promotes someone else being able to play poorly. Even when tanks stance dance and I find myself on a very thin line of a flashing orange enmity meter has made me keep diversion on cooldown as well as lucid. I'd rather not die for something I know I can ultimately control.

We're also probably, at large, not even accounting for gear disparity. For an overwhelming amount of dungeon runs I've done, very few tanks have had raid gear. Most tanks have had gear that is either current to that time (right now, that would be creator), nothing upgraded or from savage, or have gear that is from previous dungeons. Suddenly makes sense why someone like me wouldn't risk removal of diversion for roulette-only tanks. At the same token, it'd make sense that players that actually main tanks probably have no issue holding hate against RDMs.

Personally, I slot diversion, lucid dreaming, swiftcast and addle permanently, while floating my last slot according to the primal or raid; apoca for 1s-3s and surecast for 4s. For progress 3s, I actually kept erase for removing the fire tick and preventing deaths. Until people stopped getting hit by spellblade.

[Legewiel]

Diversion is a wasted Job action on a RDM, they should use Lucid Dreaming to dump their aggro and get mana back, which is by far more useful.
But if the tank can't hold the trash/boss even after that, they are either bad or too stuck up in being in dps stance.

If you're doing normal dungeons i wouldn't say it's a wasted job action, It'll prevent you a lot of headache. Even if the tank is bad, if you can adjust and have a smooth run that is awesome.

[JunseiKei]

Diversion is a wasted Job action on a RDM, they should use Lucid Dreaming to dump their aggro and get mana back, which is by far more useful.
But if the tank can't hold the trash/boss even after that, they are either bad or too stuck up in being in dps stance.

Nothing a tank can do will net them nearly as much enmity as a bursting RDM; maybe if the enmity is being diverted by a NIN using smokescreen, but that's still not anything the tank can do on its own. For dungeon runs, not much else is such a 'make-or-break' difference in role skill choice. Raiding, yes, but not normal dungeons. Might as well pick up diversion and avoid needless destruction to team play.

[ErryK]

Nothing wrong with RDM's aggro- their burst is just really, really high. If RDM steal aggro from you, ask them to pick up diversion or use lucid dream early.

RDM has to open with Diversion if they don't want to pull off the tank, I have had it many times where I end up taking aggro and dying during raid because I didn't open with Diversion. There's only an issue if after using Diversion you are still pulling off the tank, which usually ends up being on the tank, and not the RDM.

Diversion is a wasted Job action on a RDM, they should use Lucid Dreaming to dump their aggro and get mana back, which is by far more useful.

Wasted opposed to what? Surecast? Drain?

[Arrius]

Wasted opposed to what? Surecast? Drain?

Apocatastasis.

[ErryK]

Apocatastasis.

I rarely use that outside of Savage content, because most damage in dungeons is physical. Diversion is technically a DPS gain as well, as it allows the MT to drop tank stance and increase his damage.

[Sigiria]

Apocatastasis.

Apocatastasis is even more situational than diversion though. Unless the boss got a nasty magic tank buster it's pretty much superfluous.
And on the other hand the RDM opening happen everytime. Lucid Dream reduce your current enmity, so if you're using it during your opener not only it might happen after you pulled the aggro and your target already start moving but you also will restart building aggro right after you used it and might waste some of the regen if you didn't use enough MP.

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

Diversion is a wasted Job action on a RDM, they should use Lucid Dreaming to dump their aggro and get mana back, which is by far more useful.
But if the tank can't hold the trash/boss even after that, they are either bad or too stuck up in being in dps stance.

Diversion and Lucid Dreaming are very different. Diversion reduces the amount of threat your skills generate, while Lucid Dreaming halves your current amount of threat. One is proactive and used BEFORE you pull aggro so you give the tank time to lock threat on mobs. The other is reactive and used AFTER you've already pulled aggro. Lucid Dreaming is your "I screwed up" button as far as threat is concerned IMO.

Personally I take BOTH skills. Diversion is my opener in any situation where I feel its likely I'll pull aggro and make it difficult for the tank to round things up and lock them down. Lucid Dreaming is something I shouldn't have to use unless I need mp but if aggro does get dicey, I have it to drop my threat in an instant. I feel that if I didn't have Diversion and simply relied on Lucid, I'd be slowing down the group overall because mobs would be breaking off from the tank, messing up positionals for the melee, forcing the tank to wrangle them back and overall just hurting the group's efficiency. Prior to the role skill revamp, caster dps had Diversion as their only threat management tool and I feel its the primary tool caster dps are intended to use for threat management, while Lucid is meant more for mp management and a bonus threat dump for emergencies.

Diversion is far from a wasted job action and it's certainly better than most other skills you could take in its place, especially if you're actually having threat issues. If you're having aggro problems but don't take you aggro management tool because you think its "a wasted job action" then the problem is you. Now that's not to say that some tanks aren't bad at their jobs or spending too much time in dps stance, but if you're consistently having threat issues no matter the tank, the issue is probably not the tanks.

[Arrius]

If you're having aggro problems but don't take you aggro management tool because you think its "a wasted job action" then the problem is you. Now that's not to say that some tanks aren't bad at their jobs or spending too much time in dps stance, but if you're consistently having threat issues no matter the tank, the issue is probably not the tanks.

I do not have any problem with bursts or ripping aggro at all as a DPS - Because I can read the situation about and around the tank and react accordingly instead of going full yolo. Diversion itself is an okay job role, especially for physical DPS, yet for Red Mage it's something I avoid getting, as LD works for me just as good.