Mog talk interview(PVP Info)

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Before that, the main reason to go pvp feeled like just yelling unpronounceable words at the newbs at every little thing they mess up.

THIS is the statement I told you to back up. Because not only is this absolutely groundless, I know plenty of PvPers who would love to speak up and tell you just how wrong this is. Don't make up falsehoods or prattle off opinions as supporting evidence of what you think is a fact.

That aside, I'll speak up and defend the special snowflakes you're so openly bashing, and without provocation right now (which BTW doesn't reflect very well on you). I worked hard to become good at PvP. I wasn't perfect, and I'm still not. All I ever did was make effort, figure things out, then I taught others. Because I wanted to win and help others win more than I wanted to complain about or insult others that didn't know what I knew. And yet, if some uninformed person were to take your statements at face value, you'd have them thinking PvP is as toxic as people have claimed all along - many of which were simply repeating what they heard, and not what they experienced for themselves. So I ask the question again: If the PvP community, as small as it was, was SO BAD that it needed a blanket punishment, where's the chat restriction for all the toxicity that happens in PvE content where a larger body of the playerbase is represented?

[LalaRu]

THIS is the statement I told you to back up [...to go pvp feeled like just yelling unpronounceable words..., ndr]

You ask me to back up my feelings? Seriously? Them were my feelings at pvp before chat removal, I don't need, and don't have, to back up them to you.

Change "feeled like" with "is" or "was", and you're completely right to disagree. But I chosen my words carefully. Your fast reading maybe was too fast and misinterpreted the situation.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Oh I misread nothing. So you say chat being restricted is a good thing because you FEEL LIKE people only went in to yell at newbies huh? Well I feel like you're wrong. And when I think about the number of helpful players out there that take the time to at least try and teach others, whether it's accepted or not, I know you're wrong. And when I speak to players of all kinds of skill levels on a daily basis who enjoy PvP and aren't just blatantly hostile toward each other, I feel like I know you're wrong.

So, feelings aside, please back up that statement of yours with facts. Not feelings.

[Stormfur]

I started Feast when the chat still existed. And I *think* (but correct me if I'm wrong) that chat was removed and then a short while later GARO was introduced.


My teammates knew it was my first game because you have that "Look who's coming to dinner" achievement broadcast to the world. I felt bad about that, (and now on the other side, I cringe when I see it in my own teammates because I can't help them in-battle), but you know what? I had a teammate send a macro that provided basic Feast instructions. It was like a paragraph that explained what to do in a nutshell. Really helpful when you're new and you don't know that taking more than 4 medal stacks is bad. So in one way, I'm grateful that the chat existed when I was starting because people were really quick to offer pointers and answer questions.

But by the same token, there were the toxic ragers who would tell you stuff like "I hope you get cancer and die in a fire" (and yes that really happened). I think the GMs must be overwhelmed by the sheer amount of reports they get in the heat of the moment that don't ultimately pan out to anything. But then everyone gets painted with the same brush and those of us with real, valid concerns don't get heard.

[Theodric]

Again, it's irrelevant that some people threw insults at players in PvP. The exact same thing happens in PvE and the developers wouldn't dare remove the chat function there.

You're going to get toxic players in pretty much any online game. To mitigate it, punishing them for their behaviour rather than screwing everybody over with flawed quick fixes is the best way forward. Though as we know, unfortunately there's been people cheating for months and months who have gone without a ban despite multiple reports. It certainly feels like this policy was put in place to avoid having to ban players - and thus lose income from their subscription fees - rather than because the developers are truly concerned with bad behaviour. If that was their concern then they'd be rushing to deal with the infestation of botters and win traders.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

But by the same token, there were the toxic ragers who would tell you stuff like "I hope you get cancer and die in a fire" (and yes that really happened). I think the GMs must be overwhelmed by the sheer amount of reports they get in the heat of the moment that don't ultimately pan out to anything. But then everyone gets painted with the same brush and those of us with real, valid concerns don't get heard.

You make a good point here actually. And similar to Yoshi P's comments about how reports are often exaggerated, I feel like so too is the perception of all the negativity in the Feast/PvP overall. I can only speak for Aether DC, but most players are pretty good natured, assuming you are too, and willing to learn if you don't know. Mileage may vary depending on DC/server of course.

[Guesswhat]

Take any of this post with a fair grain of salt. It's much speculation here.

Just repeating what already been said multiple times. Increased popularity in PvP is not due to chat restrictions in feast. At best it has little to do with it (did really feast participation grow THAT much after restrictions in place?). It's mostly due to exp, lvl30 entry and garo event.

What I'm guessing (again, this may not be true at all) is that SE are afraid of the toxic behavior in chat and what consequences that entails (multiple harassment reports etc.).

Of course there will be toxicity in a PvP environment. Most of it however, is, I assume, spur-of-the-moment, short tempered rage. No sane person lets a bad match ruin their life. But there will always be those few who can't let stuff go and constantly rages for every minor thing. Don't let the rest suffer on behalf of those people.

One could argue that people already having experienced toxicity in chat are discouraged to continue. I agree that is a fair point. But that's why you have the possibility to report people. Why SE did not chose this route is the reason for me guessing they simply don't want to deal with potential chat harassment (from a businesses perspective). Losing customers due to harassment does not make you look good (doesn't matter if it really was harassment or not). They are willing to sacrifice any potential losses from the tiny, pre-garo PvP community on behalf of all this.

Concerning cheating in feast etc.: I'm guessing, from a business perspective, they want to be 110% sure to punish to right people. If there is even the slightly possibility of legal play, they won't risk the bad-rep of potentially punishing innocent people. If this is true, I'd say it's enough to be reasonable sure because you can never really be 110% sure (maybe we live in the matrix etc.). But from a business perspective, they wont risk it.

Again, none of this have to be true. I'm just trying figure out why it is how it is. And I'm not saying Yoshida is lying (it's rather truths with some twists).

[Keelyah]

Well to be honest Third child... unfortunately,like our modern day media, what is captured the most are those that are toxic and damaging incidents. And those of us like you and myself etc who LOVE helping others (In PVP) with out any type of slight or underhanded statements or intention ...are not represented in these circumstances. Therefore, since we are not the "majority" (more so the middle man) we sadly will not be heavily considered in reopening a HELPFUL tool like normal chat. What is best, i suppose, is brain storming what solutions do we develop within the path that SE is choosing to move in. Do we request more Quick chat statements developed by them? Do we ask for a macro system to create our own statements with a limited word text (which still a loop hole for toxic and trolls to spam distracting harmful statements)? Do we make an unofficial discord for people to utilize voice and chat for teams? Do we utilize waymarks and signs more efficiently maybe request more signs?

The thing with SE is I do not think they see PvP as mechanical as PvE. Hence simple things "like attack the healer, attack the melee and fall back etc etc" they conclude "these are enough" ...because in their mind its a head on slug fest as opposed to Susano and Delta Savage they created this hard to impossible boss tha t might need some more...more talk ( even though there are people who provide youtube tutorials that demystify it). All im saying is for the time being i think we just have to find another idea because it seems like they are not wanting to budge on this one, since we are not in control of the trolls and not in control of those who feel things.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

One thing that was brought up in "The New Chat Restriction in the Feast" was button bloat for having to add in all the quick chat macros.

Now, I've seen many people make the complaint that "PvP had too many buttons" before, which I've refuted, but in this case, we'll only be ramping back up to the "too many buttons" issue if they have to continuously add quick chat commands, and I don't think they're ever going to cover the full spectrum of situations which can, and often do occur during a match. This kinda brings things full circle and raises the question of whether it's really helpful or not, especially seeing how people have taken to spamming quick chat commands sarcastically to be negative (thus completely invalidating QC as a "fix" for that), and now twice over given the "too many buttons" complaint.

[Theodric]

If nothing else, maybe allowing mentors to speak in the chat without limitations would be a wise move. Though they'd need to strip the status from those who do not behave constructively.