Two Months In: Will You Reconsider GL IV?

[BucklesTrespen]

So, in a Q&A letter regarding Monk’s Riddle of Fire skill speed reduction, it was answered that at one time they had considered giving Monks Greased Lightning IV but shied away from it because it’d widen the gap between highly skilled and lesser skilled Monks. It also said that we should try it in savage to “understand” the skill speed reduction.
(http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Update-Thread)

We are now two months in to the expansion and savage has been released and (by some) cleared. And although I am not part of the group who have cleared all of savage, I am one of the people who still doesn’t “understand” the point of having such a huge damage boost with such a significant skill speed reduction. People have suggested the slowdown attached to RoF helps with our TP but honestly, with the across-the-board lowering of TP costs for our abilities as well as the fact we still have access to Invigorate and Purification (and with Goad now being an option not tied solely to Ninja) I have not once run into a TP issue outside of using Arm of the Destroyer as part of my AOE rotation; and that’s been said by many of the other Monks who have posted on these forums so please don’t argue “I am just one Monk saying that”.

Monks don’t have TP issues anymore outside of extremely excessive (and careless) AOE. Savage doesn’t suddenly change that. Riddle of Fire isn’t needed in its current iteration to make Monks viable in savage. So, just like I don’t understand the point of Earth Tackle - I don’t understand why we needed to wait until savage was out to confirm that the current iteration of Riddle of Fire simply pulls us too far away from the core concept of the class and doesn’t fit right.

I would really like to implore community reps to continue to pass on our requests to have RoF adjusted as it has been in PVP - or even outright changed to GL IV, because where Riddle of Fire is great for big numbers I think I can say with a degree of confidence that given the choice between Riddle of Fire for burst or GL IV for sustain (or a smaller, timed burst) that the majority of Monks would opt for GL IV. That is our identity, because...

...Monks are a job based around speed - we taught Widargelt that speed is something he needed to improve in the Stormblood quest “Choices and Paths”. Hamon, when we first met him, told us the importance of speed. We’ve been playing Monk for years with the GL concept and I honestly think it is a huge misstep for the devs to not expand upon this the same way they expanded on Dragoon’s Blood of the Dragon.

Now, I do understand that losing GL is a pain. I understand that newer Monks, or less skilled Monks would get punished more for losing their stacks. However, I don’t understand why a perfect opportunity to grow and progress the job from GL III to IV was tossed out instead of addressing the concern of losing stacks by, for example, creating a more reliable Riddle of Earth. Changing Purification to affect GL duration since we don’t suffer from the aforementioned TP issues anymore. Or any other change to help a less skilled Monk retain their stacks to avoid this widening of a gap and the struggle those newer to the class experience in keeping their stacks. These allowances are given to SAM whose buffs are 30 seconds long and NIN who gets a 1 minute skill speed buff. Why is it that Greased Lightning, our core mechanic, on a 16 second time / 12 seconds approximately at the point of refresh. This is way too low to retain GL stacks through the majority of mechanics if a boss jumps before we can refresh GL - even with Riddle of Earth because at the 12 second marker of GL timer Riddle of Earth is both most needed but most likely to fall off before we take damage. I mean, that's a whole different can of worms I won't touch on too much. Sufficed to say; using Riddle of Earth is an exercise in frustration or jubilation, depending if it works / falls off before we're hit.

Back on topic: I understand that each rank of GL gives 10% damage and at 4 stacks 40% would be too great a gain and - as they said - too great a loss for some Monks if lost. So why can’t it possible to change the value of the damage per GL stack to 7.5% - meaning 4 stacks remains a 30% damage buff - but keep the 5% skill speed increase, meaning we get to 20% skill speed reduction - a similar effect to our current GL 3 when we get an arrow card. We’ve had the value of GL stacks tweaked in the past as it used to give 9% damage per stack, so the devs are no strangers to adjusting the values.

If a permanent GL IV is too much to ask for - would it be a good idea to give us an ability that grants GL IV for 20 seconds or so as a way to test the waters? Again, I think the majority of Monks would take 20 seconds of GL IV over Riddle of Fire in a heartbeat.

Also, as a bonus request, can the suggestion to change Tackle Mastery be passed up the ladder. I’ll keep this part short, so not to sound too “change this / change that” but honestly - what is Earth Tackle for? Whose idea was that and how does a knockback attached to a melee gap closer figure into reality? It’s the most ass-backwards skill I’ve seen in this game - and that’s coming from a class that has One Ilm Punch to boot!

My humble suggestions for a buff/duration-based GL IV (i.e. 10% per stack instead of permanent 7.5% per stack):

Riddle of Fire: Lasts 20 seconds. Shares a cooldown with Riddle of Wind / Riddle of Earth.
Grants GL IV. Increases Deep Meditation proc chance to 75% on a crit / 100% on direct crit.

Riddle of Wind: Lasts 20 seconds. Shares a cooldown with Riddle of Fire / Riddle of Earth.
Grants GL IV. Increases movement speed by 10%. Resets the cooldown on Shoulder Tackle and reduces cooldown of Shoulder Tackle to 0 for the duration. Shoulder Tackle has a potency of 0 for the duration.

Riddle of Earth: Lasts 20 seconds. Shares a cooldown with Riddle of Fire / Riddle of Wind.
Grants a 20% damage shield for 20 seconds. When hit, the shield is lost and we’re granted GL IV for 20 seconds.

Opo-Opo, Raptor and Coeurl forms now have a duration of 16 seconds (up from 10)

[MiruWest]

Only thing id like to see if the form changes duration invrease. Everything else you suggested is way overpowered. MNK is already one of the top DPS classes, does it really need anything more?

[RiceisNice]

Numbers can always be tuned around if it ends up being too weak or too strong, but conceptually it would make a bit more sense.

If anything, GL4 should be an active ability that gives you the boost for a set duration rather than being a passive that allows for a 4th stack. I see the merit in them saying that it would "create a discrepancy between players", since their maximum output would be based around maintaining GL4. Losing it would be all that much more detrimental to their dps and limit fight design to accommodate. The other limiting factor I see is the latency for players (especially east coast). I already have trouble weaving in 1.5 second GCDs on my MCH and RDM, it'd be much more worse if that was for the next 15+ seconds.

[HaelseMikiro]

My humble suggestions for a buff/duration-based GL IV (i.e. 10% per stack instead of permanent 7.5% per stack)

As someone who hasn't even touched SB Monk yet, what is the actual benefit of this 'change' and how would it affect a monks opener in a raid enviroment?

[BucklesTrespen]

I wish I hadn't offered suggestions but it was 1 AM and I got carried away. I wanted to avoid this thread becoming about the suggestions and other people's suggestions - and not about GL IV which we almost had but was changed for reasons that honestly don't exist. But since I made my bed, I'll lie in it.

Only thing id like to see if the form changes duration invrease. Everything else you suggested is way overpowered. MNK is already one of the top DPS classes, does it really need anything more?

I agree that Monk is one of the top classes and our DPS is fine. That's why I haven't touched our DPS. My suggestions even probably nerf it a little, I'm not sure. I didn't math it out at 1 AM. But I believe that Monk received a royal disservice this expansion with our kit. It's basically unchanged from HW and ARR - with only a few gimmicks that either flat out don't make sense - or only work maybe 70% of the time. It's one thing to do good DPS - it's another to have a class with conflicting abilities (RoE vs Tornado Kick) and flat out bad abilities (Earth Tackle).

Thanks, at least, for supporting the foum duration suggestion. Guess we all hate cycling over and over again pre-pull, eh! Form duration makes sense. I had hoped to approach everything by suggesting things that make sense to Monk. Regarding my riddle values - all values can be changed for balance - but you can't start a discussion without starting a discussion. Hit or miss, everything is open to tweaking.

I don't think they "way overpowered" though. My Riddle of Fire suggestion does 20% less damage than the current RoF, but offers the standard GL +5% weapon skill cast time etc. in place of -15% speed. If anything, as it stands, this is probably slightly (but not too much) weaker than the current Riddle of Fire. I don't know, I didn't math it out at 1 AM which is why I think values should be taken on face value - and simply the concept addressed.

Riddle of Wind suggestion is just an expanded version of what they have now. Can any of us honestly say we've used Riddle of Wind and it worked as a means to go to and from points A and B? I nor any Monk I know have found a time and place where we can shoulder tackle to a mob and 5 seconds later shoulder tackle to the next - or back to the boss. Nothing current at least. And I find it hard to believe a level 66 ability is intended for anything other than current content. Add to the fact that because Shoulder Tackle has a potency value attached it becomes part of our DPS rotation - making this ability even less likely to be available when we need it. My suggestion allows us access to Shoulder Tackle, with zero potency, for 20 seconds. As it stands now, getting one extra tackle within 5 seconds is pretty much useless. Nothing dies in 5 seconds. Not even open world mobs die that fast. It's only use I've found is gathering a second mob slightly faster while farming mob drops. It's great in PVP, but why did this make it into PVE like this? What is it for?

Same with my Riddle of Earth suggestion. It's just the same as we have now, but repackaged to make more sense and be more forgiving (read: for the lesser skilled Monks Yoshi talked about). Linking the GL refresh to being hit was a terrible oversight. What happens when a boss jumps when we have 12 seconds left on GL timer versus 16 and we don't get hit? Riddle of Earth loses tremendous value and we're a lot more likely to lose our stacks. My suggestion just evens the playing field. 20 second buff (less than current) that gives full stacks plus the bonus GL 4 shared among all the Riddles. This gives my RoE the same value if used at 16 seconds of GL or 1 second. This actively helps the lesser skills Monks that struggle with GL upkeep, negating the argument about not granting us GL 4 this expansion. Then Earth Tackle - which again can any of us honestly say we've found a use for. What is this skill? What even? Why does a gap closer have a knockback? It's fun as balls to knock people off the cliff in Shatter PVP - but we've an entire PVP toolkit for that. Why the heck do we have this in PVE?

Add to the fact that I made clear these suggested Riddles all share a cooldown, then we have to choose - not cycle, our Riddles. No no chaining these back-to-back for near unlimited GL 4 and whatnot.

If you can look past the values tied to my Riddle suggestions and try to stay on the same page as me - the question ultimately was: given SB has been out for two months and savage is out - can the devs reassess giving us GL IV. Do people here agree?

Riddle of Fire is wonky as heck. I'm happy to hear why people would prefer to keep current Riddle of Fire over a permanent or duration-based GL IV and I hope we can get back on track to have that discussion. I hope to avoid people dissecting my suggestions as though they're patch notes. I'm not trying to develop the job for real, I just hoped for a discussion on how our job could feel as though it is progressing through the expansions. Because right now, honestly, it feels like we're all Widargelt in "Choices and Paths"; unsure of what makes a Monk unique, and unsure of our place in the world. We haven't learned anything new or exciting - we haven't progressed as Monks. We're just the same as ever but with a couple of tacked-on gimmicks, half-baked, ass-backward gimmicks (lol Earth Tackle, WTF?!)

[Blanchimont]

I think the problem with Riddle of Fire is that they fail to understand that there's more to the class than the damage numbers. The argument for it is always the damage numbers and it fails to consider the Monk class as a whole and the feel of the skill itself. The Monk class has been about building attack speed and ramping up damage, but since the Heavensward expansion, that was no longer the case. Instead, the skills seem to try to trade your speed for damage. This carried over into Stormblood and Riddle of Fire is just a cumulation of everything wrong with the design since Heavensward. Instead of giving us a way to keep it up longer, they try to get us to trade it for a single powerful blow, which is kind of useless. The long boss transitions have also made the class worse overall as they are forced to lose their stacks and Riddle of Earth is an awful skill that forces you to take a hit for it to count (the reason is whenever possible, you want to avoid damage).

In my opinion, the three stances are a failed concept and should just be abandoned. Just flat out give the Monks a base 5% damage buff since there's really no way to ever make Fists of Wind and Fists of Earth preferable as long as one gives damage and the other two do not. The same problem comes across for the the Riddles. Riddle of Earth only triggers upon taking a hit and is bare useful. Riddle of Wind is pretty much a never use. Riddle of Fire is something you use once your stacks reach max to boost your damage output even further.

You might as well make the chakras have a way to refresh GL stacks. It'll be much more useful. Purification would be a good skill to replace since we already have Invigorate.

[TheMazrem]

If they were to add a GL4 in, I'd say it should be tied to Fists of Wind.

Put it on the second tackle, give it a temporary buff that lasts only a short time until it wears off or you swap forms, and then have it refresh back to your GL3 buff when it ends. It would make FoW more interesting at least.

[Xeinon]

Only thing id like to see if the form changes duration invrease. Everything else you suggested is way overpowered. MNK is already one of the top DPS classes, does it really need anything more?

I see this argument all the time and I honestly just don't get your point. Literally nothing of what OP has said had anything to do with MNK being underpowered and in need of buffs, hes asking for gameplay changes and so are many many other MNK mains, especially those playing since ARR since the gameplay changed little to nothing and with SB got even worse.

I just feel like a lot of players and especially SE are way too hung up on numbers. People like OP are suggesting these changes not because we want our job to be stronger and have higher DPS, we actually want the gameplay and HOW we achieve those numbers to improve, because at the end of the day thats what actually matters. The numbers will be balanced eventually but the gameplay stays the same.

[BucklesTrespen]

In my opinion, the three stances are a failed concept and should just be abandoned...

I can't agree more. I bring this up in other Monk threads too. The second a stance is given a damage increase - it is used exclusively. Choice is removed.

Purification giving 1-2 seconds per chakra spent would be a great addition. No need to use all five at once. Gives Chakra another use. This would also make Purification used likely every boss fight as we would boost the GL timer to make sure Riddle of Earth doesn't screw us over like it often does. (Riddle of Earth still needs an outright mecahnic change though. Needing to be hit is just plain dumb).

[BucklesTrespen]

...

Yes, this exactly. Thanks so much!