Is Fordola the monster Lyse says she is?

[Galgarion]

Between the two of them, I'm finding myself feeling more Sympathy for Fordola. We know the way she and her Skulls treated her countrymen was crap, but we also know that she was overcompensating out of guilt and a deeply invested inferiority complex. Her entire life has been hell, it's not hard to feel bad for her. So Lyse's little hero of justice announcements like "I should kill you for what you've done!" or "You'll live to see justice!" just kind of come across as posturing. I won't call it a false equivilancy since Fordola's actions are objectively worse, and she is in wiling service to a sociopath, but at the same time, is Lyse's stark view of her as evil really justifiable? Yes, she killed Meffrid and Conrad, but Fordola is an imperial: how does killing them make her a "kin-slaying traitor" instead of a tremendously effective soldier?

[VargasVermillion]

I kinda feel like characters like Lyse are too self righteous and haven't really had that knocked out of them. regardless of what the right thing is it's incredibly naive to assume everyone can just give up the life their conquerors gave them for better or worse.

[Galgarion]

I kinda feel like characters like Lyse are too self righteous and haven't really had that knocked out of them. regardless of what the right thing is it's incredibly naive to assume everyone can just give up the life their conquerors gave them for better or worse.

That's a good articulation of what I was feeling. I feel like her thinking is just to too straight-forward. "Us or them," Conrad died talking down a group of Skulls, but I really feel like L would have just blitzed them.

[Alien_Gamer]

Yes, it is posturing but thats no different that much of the dialogue between two sides that hate each other. Fordola is Ala Mhigan, she was born there to an Ala Mhigan mother, hence why killing other Ala Mhigans makes her a kin-slayer. That she's also working for Garlemald makes her a traitor to Ala Mhigo. To answer your question, she's both; she's a kin-slaying traitor to other Ala Mhigans and an effective soldier to Garlemald.

Lyse's view of her as evil is absolutely justifiable, as you said Fordola did kill many people in service to Garlemald; in any war, those who kill your friends, family and allies are the evil ones. Its just not a clear cut black and white scenario, there's a lot of grey to Fordola's situation which is what makes her an interesting character as opposed to the Imperial Cohort #35 we see everywhere. Fordola's history makes her actions more understandable and possibly more relatable but I don't think that makes her actions forgivable. I'd guess the next few content patches will have more than a few scenes with characters arguing about what Fordola's fate should be.

[Cilia]

Fordola is a monster, but she is a product of... well, of Zenos' psychopathy. I don't think Lyse is being entirely fair when she blames Fordola entirely for what happened, but she's not entirely wrong either. Though her upbringing and situation can explain her actions, it doesn't excuse them; Fordola still chose to do what she did and should face justice for it.

That doesn't mean killing her, though. That means holding her to account for what she did.

I have little doubt Fordola will continue to play a role in the 4.x series ("So falls the hunter, but what of the hound?") and eagerly await seeing what fate has in store for her.

[Theodric]

Lyse definitely failed to see the bigger picture, as evidenced by her initial inability to understand why non-combatants weren't eager to rise up and fight against armed soldiers on a whim.

Fordola made mistakes, though her actions aren't without justifications from both her perspective and situation. She was very clearly shown to be conflicted even when giving the order to fire upon her own men. Just as the Warriors of Darkness were manipulated by Elidibus so, too, was Fordola manipulated by Zenos. That doesn't excuse her completely but she's far from incapable of being given a satisfying redemption arc. She may even go off the rails and end up as an antagonist once more - we'll just have to wait and see what awaits her.

[Quor]

On the tree of liberty, traitors hang highest. If I were ever trapped in a room with a traitor, an enemy, and a gun with one bullet, I'd turn the gun on the traitor first, because at least your enemy is honest.

Now, Fordola isn't a traitor per se in that she wasn't "on" the Ala Mhigan Resistances side in the first place, so she couldn't have "betrayed" them. She was born (or near enough) into occupied territory, and knew nothing her whole life except that she was a lower-class citizen (to put it nicely) and that it was up to her and those like her to make the best of a shit situation. So she did. And of course, it didn't work out the way she hoped it would. However, she is Ala Mhigan by blood and culture, so in that sense she "betrayed" her country. But as always, there are mitigating circumstances. Not only did she have almost her entire upbringing under the yoke of the empire, but she had a good chunk of her adult life under the ungentle management of Zenos himself. So in that sense, she, and by extension her Skulls, have a chance at redemption.

Did Lyse go over the top with her? I think no. Lyse is more idealistic, and certainly it's easier to fight against the Empire when it's not hanging the lives of your family and countrymen over your head, so in that sense Lyse truly can't see Fordola's point of view. And that's great! Because it allows for character growth. We're still very early in the xpac; Lyse has a lot of maturing to do, and I have a feeling experiences shared between her and Fordola will be a big driving force of this maturation.

[Daralii]

I wouldn't say that Fordola is a monster, simply because she still has something resembling a conscience, but Lyse seeing her as one is understandable. Fordola effectively denounced Ala Mhigo as a state, and will kill anyone that still claims allegiance to it in Garlemald's name, despite her and them being countrymen. Lyse is young and idealistic, and between her allegiance and her following orders to fire on her own unit, it's perfectly in character for Lyse to see Fordola a monster as a result.

[Anonymoose]

I think it's important to remember that we're seeing Fordola in a position she didn't expect or desire. She seems to have bought into Baelsar's framing that Ala Mhigo was weak and corrupt and rightfully conquered. The Skulls of the Wolf then would be the first generation of the new Ala Mhigo, loyal to the Empire and its mission but capable of standing on their own. The Empire represented order, structure, and support. According to Rhitahtyn, cities like these thrive in the Empire while territories that embrace rebellion and squalor are crushed beneath the weight of their "failures". Yet this forsakes Ala Mhigo's very sovereignty and self-determination, ceding their destiny to foreign powers. Is it better to thrive in chains or let your hollow, corrupt city collapse with its unearned pride and unmet potential? That's the worldview drilled into her by Baelsar. Even if it was less complex than this, to them, strength was the key to freedom regardless.

Seeing the way the XIIth ran things must have put her in an impossible position, realizing that her meritocratic ambitions probably went up in flames with the Black Wolf. "True" Ala Mhigans hated the Skulls, but "true" Garleans would never see even loyal, strong Ala Mhigans as equals. As far as I can tell, Zenos just stepped in and toyed with her hopes, manipulating that worldview to raise her up and cast her down until she was begging to wield as much power as possible against anyone who'd ever hurt her or made her feel inferior. It's what he did - encouraged people to become savage animals that validated his worldview and, if they could successfully provide him with a challenge, might make him feel alive.

So yeah, we captured a feral, broken woman whose choices didn't pan out how she'd hoped. What matters is who she is inside. Is Resonance permanent? Can she overcome the spiritual poison eating away at her? Does she think that the soul of Garlemald at large is closer to Zenos or Baelsar? Would she try to reconcile with a free Ala Mhigo? We just don't know, yet. When the fight for Ala Mhigo's soul begins (What kind of government? Who fills the seats? etc.), I'll be interested to hear where her hopes and loyalties lie.

[Grayve]

Monster: one who deviates from normal or acceptable behavior or character ; something monstrous; especially : a person of unnatural or extreme ugliness, deformity, wickedness, or cruelty.

She ordered her own soldiers to be fired upon. Her fellow wolves, even, Ala Migahns like herself. She made a choice, even when those below her questioned that order, she reaffirmed it. And that wasn't a 'we can't send reinforcements' choice. It was a 'don't send reinforcements'. The only reason she stopped the cannon was damaged by Eistinien. Her other acts are acts of war, though Lyse or the resistance may see them otherwise

She also made the choice to accept Xenos offer of power, and her reasoning for doing so was not because 'Xenos will kill me if I don't say yes." She had a rather long tirade about her motivation, in which I don't recall her listing a single reason I found noble.