Is Warrior the weakest of the tanks?

[Mycow8me]

You cannot compare grit and shield oath to a warriors Defiance. Always on mitigation is much more valuable in all scenarios, especially large enemy groups. Surely SE realized this and gave us more active mitigation cooldowns for this reason. A warriors defiance is only as useful as the extra 25% hp beyond what it normally has. If you are at 75% HP or less in defiance and take a tankbuster or continuous damage, that extra 25% hp you get from defiance has done nothing for you and is continuing to do nothing for you until you are topped off again. The extra healing a warrior gets is only to match the larger hp pool that healers have to cure through to top you off and if you think about it realistically, it does not make them any more easier/faster to top off than the other 2 classes for this reason.

The only use it has is for scholars shielding tactics beyond tankbuster mechanics if topped off on HP.

[Galgarion]

well thats exactly why grit and shield oath is like a permanent rampart, while warrior depends the most on the healers I love the extra hp but i hate how that tank stance is def makes them feel super squishy , I actually question some of the pulls I do on warrior that I know are safe on pali and drk. But I love them in other fights because of how easy it is to change stances , but I can def feel the squish

Warriors are constantly dancing between deliverance and Defiance (unless they're uber-geared, in which case, screw it, they're just going to stay in deliverance.) I bet you a dollar what you're seeing that makes them 'feel' squishy is them switching back to Defiance and suddenly having a bigger, emptier health bar that makes it look like they took a big hit, when in fact they switched out so they could use equilibriam for a self-heal, or are about to combo thrill of battle with upheaval. If they just stayed in Defiance for the whole run, they wouldn't feel any different healing-wise from a Paladin. They'd just be a lot less effective and far duller.

[Launched]

Utility futility schmutility. What WAR brings is convenience to a party. You have damage and you have cooldowns for any situation.

I'm pretty sure DRK and PLD have damage and cooldowns too. The damage difference between tanks isn't as big as you think, for example at 95th percentile PLD actually averages the most DPS in O2S and DRK is only 40 DPS behind WAR in O3S. Across all fights (using the all bosses filter), PLD averages ~50-70 DPS less than WAR and DRK averages ~100-130 less than WAR. That's an incredibly small difference when groups are doing 25k+.



If you want to just count cooldowns then sure, WAR has more. But PLD and DRK can actually use their short cooldown skills outside of tank stance. That means they have Sheltron/Intervention and TBN for every single tankbuster on top of whatever else they want to use. That's either 25% mitigation + 5-5.5k shield, or 10% mitigation (or 20/30% if Rampart and Sentinel won't be needed) + 10-11k shield. That's way more than enough to compete with WAR's skills.

You and your party never have to think about your position when it comes to delta attack. just lolholmgang it. Your co-tank never has to coordinate taking the 2nd hit of thunder III. just lolholmgang the first and third, while he invuls the 2nd. When you can conserve defensive CDs for you and your co-tank, that is the very definition of a safer run. MTing halicarnassus is a joke with the PLETHORA of options, and OTing in that fight s smooth as butter thanks to onslaught.

Your party also never needs to think about Delta Attack if you have a DRK. They're just over 5 minutes apart so you can Living Dead all 3 of them. PLD can use Hallowed on whatever else your group would prefer, it's available for 2 of the 3 Double Attacks. The 1st and 2nd Double Attacks are just over 3m apart so I don't think a WAR could take all 3, though I could be wrong. So bringing a WAR means you get to avoid one tank swap against normal Exdeath, which is hardly a big advantage.

MTing O3S without a WAR is also a joke because Awareness gives all 3 tanks another 33% mitigation cooldown. You get a lot of mitigation for every single Critical Hit thanks to TBN/Sheltron/Intervention/Cover/Awareness, and that doesn't even cut into skills like Rampart/Sentinel/Shadow Wall if you want to keep them for autoattacks. OTing as any tank isn't exactly difficult either, adds are spread out well enough that you'll have good cooldowns for them all and enmity reducing skills should be up for them all except Dragon.

So how is "lack of utlity" a valid point when it hasn't even proved a breaking point?

It's a valid point because none of the things WAR is meant to be good at actually make much of a difference in practice, so we have 3 tanks that can all DPS/tank well, but one has a ton of utility, the second has a little bit, and the third has none.

[Hruodig]

War is perfectly fine for all content in the game right now. I've cleared o4s with it, no problems. Holmgang being every 3 minutes is still op for cheesing tank busters <3

[Hierro]

It's a valid point because none of the things WAR is meant to be good at actually make much of a difference in practice, so we have 3 tanks that can all DPS/tank well, but one has a ton of utility, the second has a little bit, and the third has none.

Oh man, how is WAR ever going to make it without those shiny wings or succor every 2 minutes?

[Shinkyo]

none of the things WAR is meant to be good at actually make much of a difference in practice.

That can be said about PLD's "ton of utility" as well.
It's nice to have, doesn't cost anything but really doesn't make that much of a difference either.
Does it make PLD a better choice if you have to pick one? Sure, since there's no drawback to it.
Does it make WAR weak or undesirable? Absolutely not.

[Baci]

So. Since the utility seems to not mean much to a lot of people we can just remove passage of arms, divine veil, Intervention without replacement. Shouldnt bother most of the people then

[DaulBan]

So. Since the utility seems to not mean much to a lot of people we can just remove passage of arms, divine veil, Intervention without replacement. Shouldnt bother most of the people then

I don't know if that's necessarily what people mean. As of right now with how easy content is Paladin's suite of skills is basically just button bloat. Even with low item levels it's fairly rare that Passage or Intervention make a big enough difference to make a previously unclearable fight clearable. At that point PLD will become a lot more important than now, when conversations about whether or not PLD is really overpowered by the merit of its utility will matter. Think A8S and the fact it was known as a SCH check more than anything else thanks to the astounding amount of damage, but maybe in regards to tanks. At that point I can imagine PLD utility becoming an issue, but for now Intervention and PoA are basically buttons that sort of do interesting things but would be better served as 'hit this to do more damage' buttons.

People still want them [PoA and Intervention] right now for fringe use or when they're absolutely needed, but in the former case there is usually a better option and in the latter PoA or Intervention can be covered by a succor or adlo respectively.

If people really want to give PLD a gap closer and salted earth to fill in for the utility I wouldn't mind though...

[RLofOBFL]

I mean I main PLD and cleared up to O3S and normal Exdeath in O4s and I never use Intervention, cover, or passage of arms. I use divine veil sometimes for library phase spellblade holy and meteor in Exdeath, but even then I don't actually need to use it as I've cleared O3s with DRK/WAR and forgotten Divine Veil before that was easily made up with a sacred soil from SCH. I am aware I'm just being bad not using intervention(it is hard to target on controller and my macros clips so I tend to forget it)but that just shows how unnecessary it is. All it is is a safety net, like RDM, but less effective.

It's nice to have but it is not OP or majorly game breaking in any way. All WAR/DRK really needs are damage buffs. Put DRK at PLD level and make WAR 100ish dps higher than both and it'll be balanced(enough).

[Paiyne]

I mean I main PLD and cleared up to O3S and normal Exdeath in O4s and I never use Intervention, cover, or passage of arms...but that just shows how unnecessary it is. All it is is a safety net, like RDM, but less effective.

Pointless - the discussion is if warrior is weaker. Not if they don\\'t have the minimum tools required. Having so much you don\\'t have to use it all just shows how fortunate PLD is right now.

It\\'s nice to have but....All WAR/DRK really needs are damage buffs.

Sort of agree. I'd like to have it higher difference as I don't think 100 would matter AT ALL. But mainly I agree warrior doesn't need all this utility talk. A little thing with shake it off rework might be nice to have but I don't care if we get it tbh.