As a new player that really likes this game ...

[Charoy]

Yes, that makes it easier to see who is talking instead of searching thru all the sea of names.

I liked the story, and making it mandatory is ok. But not with soooo many pointles quests, mostly in the ARR story. I just started skipping dialogues all the way until I hit HW questline, which is my favourite. Just so so many fetch quests that I ended up "disconected" from the story.

Its an "issue" cuz I feel no sense of progress. In WoW, you enter one day with the raid group and kill 1, 2, 3 bosses, to return the next day and see the bosses and trash dead, as the are all in the same instance. FFXIV's raids feel like the rest of the trials, just harder.

I've played WoW since vanilla and I like trash mobs in raids, makes them not feel empty or just consequent boss battles, like here. Also in WoW trash pulls have their own mechanics, they are not just meat shields for the raid party to aoe thru.

[Rymm]

I've played WoW since vanilla and I like trash mobs in raids, makes them not feel empty or just consequent boss battles, like here. Also in WoW trash pulls have their own mechanics, they are not just meat shields for the raid party to aoe thru.

Not trying to pick a fight, but when did you quit WoW? In Cata and beyond the vast, vast majority of trash pulls were just 'meat shields for the raid party to aoe thru' with maybe one or two trash pulls per raid that required you to have at least two brain cells to rub together.

[Gemina]

I've played WoW since vanilla and I like trash mobs in raids, makes them not feel empty or just consequent boss battles, like here. Also in WoW trash pulls have their own mechanics, they are not just meat shields for the raid party to aoe thru.

Hmm, you say you like trash pulls during raids, but don't like trash pull mechanics that exist in this game, or that it is essentially the same mechanic throughout. If trash pulls were common to raids in this game, they really wouldn't be any different and serve as "meat shields to AoE through" as you have pointed out. So not exactly sure how get your nod of approval here.

That being said, some dungeons do have specific mechanics for trash pulls, but they are mostly in ARR. The Sunken Temple of Qarn needs to have the Qarn Facers killed over certain tiles in order to progress. Dzamael Darkhold requires you to pull the trash into blue lights throughout the dungeon so you don't get AoEd to death by the roaming boss. The Lost City of Amdapor has mobs with tether mechanics that can't be ignored. I can also mention the hell hole that is Aurum Vale, which is just a beast of a dungeon.

HW got away from this a bit, but gave us more mechanic heavy boss fights, and I can't speak for SB dungeons. But even the mechanics I mentioned above, it wasn't uncommon to have players in DF that struggled with them, so that could be why they went away from that.

[RichardButte]

I liked the story, and making it mandatory is ok. But not with soooo many pointles quests, mostly in the ARR story. I just started skipping dialogues all the way until I hit HW questline, which is my favourite. Just so so many fetch quests that I ended up "disconected" from the story.

The ARR endgame slog is a goddamn nightmare, yes.

The problem is that you're slogging through over 100 quests that had previously been released over the period of a year plus as just bits of extra endgame questing.

But doing them ALL IN A ROW like the game makes you do is basically the sales pitch for selling jump potions, and it's exceedingly effective.

I have a friend grinding through it right now and although he loves story in games (including XIV), I can tell it's starting to grate on him. The real problem is that, throughout these quests, there's a notable lack of "story" in the main STORY questline and is instead mostly just running back and forth across zones for another few windows of dialogue that tell very little.

But there's a reason FFXIV lacks the "hardcore pve community wow has"... and that reason is

...its raid encounters are far too easy and don't offer the consistent challenge that WoW's do, which has nothing to do with "being like WoW", otherwise all of the games out there harder than WoW (like EVE Online) would be "more like WoW" and that absolutely isn't true.

FFXIV is a WoW clone in that it's a themepark MMO and designed with the same level cap and gear gating that WoW features. The way both games handle the level cap and gearscores are identical.

The key difference is that the WoW team does a much better job in designing raid encounters while the XIV team does a better job in the number of side pursuits you'll find in the game, overall handling of story, and does a much, MUCH better job of fostering a more helpful in-game community.

Really, if XIV's devs could step their raid game up (and they may well do this with SSavage), then XIV will be a generally better version of WoW all around.

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

...its raid encounters are far too easy and don't offer the consistent challenge that WoW's do, which has nothing to do with "being like WoW", otherwise all of the games out there harder than WoW (like EVE Online) would be "more like WoW" and that absolutely isn't true.

FFXIV is a WoW clone in that it's a themepark MMO and designed with the same level cap and gear gating that WoW features. The way both games handle the level cap and gearscores are identical.

The key difference is that the WoW team does a much better job in designing raid encounters while the XIV team does a better job in the number of side pursuits you'll find in the game, overall handling of story, and does a much, MUCH better job of fostering a more helpful in-game community.

Really, if XIV's devs could step their raid game up (and they may well do this with SSavage), then XIV will be a generally better version of WoW all around.

FFXIV does not place the same importance on raiding as wow does and that's precisely why some folk (like me) enjoy the game so much. I hope SE never "steps up their raid game" and turns FFXIV into WoW with a different story.

We don't need another "raid or die" mmo. There's penty of those to choose from and there's a reason people like me aren't playing them.

[RichardButte]

FFXIV does not place the same importance on raiding as wow does and that's precisely why some folk (like me) enjoy the game so much. I hope SE never "steps up their raid game" and turns FFXIV into WoW with a different story.

We don't need another "raid or die" mmo. There's penty of those to choose from and there's a reason people like me aren't playing them.

What does "raid or die" even mean?

If you're referring to no other form of endgame progression besides raiding, I have bad news for you: raiding is the only real endgame XIV has.

WoW actually has it beat in that regard because WoW's PvP system is far more in depth than XIV's. Though XIV still has it beat in total number of side pursuits (and if they DO add a glamour log, it'll have WoW even MORE beat).

To the OP......just go play WoW.

"Take the money that you were giving to this game I like and go give it to some other company instead."

No one who's actually a fan of XIV would ever say something like this...

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

What does "raid or die" even mean?


If you're referring to no other form of endgame progression besides raiding, I have bad news for you: raiding is the only real endgame XIV has.

That's a matter of opinion... and one I do not share. Players can progress character power without raiding, and the gap in gear power between those who raid and those who don't is very small compared to other mmo's that accentuate raiding as their primary endgame.

If the main thing someone cares about is raiding, it's not surprising that they might not acknowledge the other "endgame" content that FFXIV has to offer. Just because you consider raiding "the only real endgame" FFXIV has, doesn't mean that's actually the case. I personally don't feel it is and I am fairly confident that I am not alone in that.

Raiding (by which I mean savage) is niche. The amount of players who engage in it is minuscule compared to those who don't. So if you're saying that raiding is the "only real endgame" you're also saying that the majority of those playing FFXIV don't engage in the "only real endgame". So what, pray tell, are they all doing then?

[RichardButte]

Players can progress character power without raiding, and the gap in gear power between those who raid and those who don't is very small compared to other mmo's that accentuate raiding as their primary endgame.

While true, endgame progression isn't just about gear but by which raids your group has been able to overcome. Also, if you don't raid, why gear up at all?

As for what players who aren't raiding do, my guess would be unsub until there's more story content added, since Yoshi-P said in an interview that many players do this and that the devs are actually fine with it (the sales from the xpac will carry the team during the lower sub numbers).

If you don't raid, what do YOU do once you've hit the end of the MSQ?

Change everything about FFXIV so it's just a WoW clone.

No one who's actually a fan of XIV would ever say something like this.... except the OP did. Hmmmm guess he's not a fan then.

Making the story quest not gate content ≠ turning XIV into a WoW clone.

XIV is already a WoW clone: everything in XIV's player progression, from the level cap being raised via expansions to collecting gear to raise your item level, to quests ferrying you from zone to zone, is taken directly from WoW (which took some of this from Everquest, if we're being honest).

One of the key reasons Yoshi-P was chosen for his role is his extensive knowledge of and experience with western MMOs, including WoW. He even talked in an interview about how much time he spent chasing down a copy of Everquest back in the day.

How can people say "OH NOES!! WOW CLONE!!!" and not realize they're playing one?

All the WoW clones died short anguished deaths yet FFXIV is still around and healthy....clearly SE is doing something wrong.

The Final Fantasy brand name still holds a lot of sway over people, but XIV is ultimately still around because it's the best-made WoW clone out there that offers enough to its players that it can succeed primarily from selling xpacs.

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

While true, endgame progression isn't just about gear but by which raids your group has been able to overcome. Also, if you don't raid, why gear up at all?

As for what players who aren't raiding do, my guess would be unsub until there's more story content added, since Yoshi-P said in an interview that many players do this and that the devs are actually fine with it (the sales from the xpac will carry the team during the lower sub numbers).

If you don't raid, what do YOU do once you've hit the end of the MSQ?

Raiding is not a prerequisite for a desire to progress character power ("gear up"). The "need" is irrelevant. Everyone wants to progress their character's power to some degree and gear is the primary method of doing so, particularly once the level cap is reached. It's really as simple as that.

While I can't speak for anyone else, what I do instead of raiding once I've finished the MSQ is work on crafting and gathering, level other jobs I haven't maxed to see their stories, do side quests I may have missed along the way for more story, enjoy events like the Moonfire Faire, I farm tomestones to progress my gear as far as I can without raiding, not because I "need" better gear for any specific reason, but rather simply for the sake of being more powerful because its fun to feel uber. I sometimes farm old content for glamour or mounts. I rarely engage in current ex primals when friends twist my arm. I also work on the old ARR beast tribe reps I havent maxed when I feel a desire to do so.

I don't touch savage raids because I don't have any interest in being tied to a schedule for specific content. I also have no desire to spend my time wiping over and over on a fight till every "gets it" (assuming they ever do). As a former mmo raider I'd be good for that sorta content, but after years of doing it, I just don't have the patience to deal with it anymore. It can be stressful when you find yourselves stuck on a particular fight and hours go by with no progress made. And being expected to show up on a specific schedule... yea I'm just not interested in that anymore. I like my freedom to log on when I want and log off when I want without any obligations or expectations.

Asking me why I "need" better gear if I don't raid is stupid. I don't need it, I want it. It's fun to feel more powerful regardless of if you choose to engage in high difficulty content. My days of being a hardcore raider are behind me. That's just not the stuff I'm interested in anymore and its precisely why I play FFXIV now instead of other MMO's that emphasize raiding as the endgame.

[Xie_Belvoule]

What does "raid or die" even mean?

If you're referring to no other form of endgame progression besides raiding, I have bad news for you: raiding is the only real endgame XIV has.

WoW actually has it beat in that regard because WoW's PvP system is far more in depth than XIV's. Though XIV still has it beat in total number of side pursuits (and if they DO add a glamour log, it'll have WoW even MORE beat).



"Take the money that you were giving to this game I like and go give it to some other company instead."

No one who's actually a fan of XIV would ever say something like this...

Change everything about FFXIV so it's just a WoW clone.

No one who's actually a fan of XIV would ever say something like this.... except the OP did. Hmmmm guess he's not a fan then.

P.S. All the WoW clones died short anguished deaths yet FFXIV is still around and healthy....clearly SE is doing something wrong.