Dropping Grit

[Leximus]

Hey fellow tankers, I need advice on dropping tank stance. Specifically, dropping grit stance (I main DRK) in a 100% PUG environment.

I live a PUG life and have no static. I've tried researching about dropping tank stance and most of it are under optimal settings. My question is, do you drop tank stance in PUGs? I'm referring to all group content from 4 man to end game content. I've done a little trial and error on contents that I'm overgeared with, and I always have a hard time with aggro holding.

Example, in lakshimi EX, some OT will always stay in tank stance. This forces me to stay in tank stance as well. For others that don't, they provoke to stay in 2nd aggro list but if I drop tank stance, we're gonna ping-pong the boss left and right.

Before I move on, I would like to state that I'm looking to optimize my, and only mine, tanking abilities in PUG settings. I'm just looking to enjoy content and not waste time telling others what they should do. I can accept staying in tank stance.

For 4 man, it's easier to manage but I still lose aggro sometimes (especially RDM) if I open with only 1 PS before dropping Grit.

For now, for 4 man, this is my opener after trial and error.

UnMend > BP > HS > Salted Earth > SS > plunge > PS > DAC&S > full DA SE combo > Drop grit > HS > BW and take it from there.

Uses up the duration of BP, gain blood for delirium and burns mana for immediate use of BW after dropping grit. More importantly, it gains way more aggro than 1 PS. Also, it has the advantage of prolonging tank stance so DPS that let it rip without a care in the world, I can at least check the aggro and decide if I should stay in tank stance longer.

For 8 man, I also use the above opener, but fights last way longer and I find myself having to go back into grit due to aggro. I actually have higher DPS staying in tank stance all the way rather than going back into grit as it's rather awkward to go back into grit.

[Sarcatica]

Against competent DPS, you will lose aggro with just a PS combo. What you can do is to DAPS for starting, then you drop Grit and go full SE combo, if you still need aggro do top up with normal PS combo.

There are bound to be times where you have to do double/triple PS combo in Grit before going Gritless in some extreme cases.

[Katotsu]

Another thing to note is Shirk. While it doesn't help you as MT, if the OT has it there is no aggro problem with the OT. It's sadly undervalued and underused.

[Driavna]

If DPS use their agro reduction during CD usage you should be fine. But from my own experience, randoms DDs don't do that. However, good DDs are also rare so, in general, you will have an easy time staying out of tank stance if you build a good amount during at first.

As a Paladin what I do is: Shield Lob -> Rage of Alone combo weaving CoS and SW -> Goring Blade Combo -> Sword Oath and I never had to do another Rage of Alone combo ever during the whole fight.

[Brannigan]

Like others are saying, it's really going to depend on the quality of your PUGs. As paladin in 4 man bosses, I usually open with a tank stance Halone/oGCDs then just Sword Oath DPS. However, in a longer fight if one damage dealer is doing significantly higher DPS than the other, they can catch up. As for 8 man content, it's really on a case-by-case basis. Lakshmi and Neo Exdeath have their own special hate requirements, but other than that it generally depends on
-Do you have a Ninja?
-Are your DPS using their hate reduction skills?
-Do you have a Samurai or Monk? (they both have worse hate reduction than the other DPS)
-If you have a WHM, are they using hate reduction where appropriate? (AOE heals can mess you up on some things)
-Are you and the OT Shirking effectively?
For a PUG it might be safe to assume on the first pull that Ninjas won't shadewalker (and they DEFINITELY won't smoke bomb), Samurai and Monk aren't slotting Diversion, healers never look at the hate bar and overuse AOE heals, and the OT never shirks. In that case I just suck it up and use Shield Oath for a little longer than I'd like to and replace some RAs with Halone when I can fill in the MP gaps with Sheltron. That last part doesn't really apply to DRK, though.

p.s. always commend ninjas.

[LittleSparrow]

You are a tank.
Grit reduces damage taken, emnity aside.
How is this even a question?

[KalinOrthos]

You are a tank.
Grit reduces damage taken, emnity aside.
How is this even a question?

This. Even if you were trying to maximize damage while MTing, I don't think Grit damage is -that- much less less that non-Grit damage. In raw numbers, yes, there is a very clear difference, but your MP regen in Grit is so much higher, which translates to more DA and TBN usage, which in turn means higher damage on Siphon Slash and Souleater, and more DA+Bloodspiller.

Yes, if you're OTing, being out of grit shouldn't even be a question, but as MT, I can't honestly say that I really see any reason to be out of Grit outside of Lakshmi's jump or other similar circumstance.

[Thoro39]

^Terrible advice. The increased MP from Grit Syphon strike is a moot point, when Bloodweapon gains you so much more MP, Bloodgeneration + Attackspeed while having no Grit penalty.

On dropping Grit, watch how the damage goes. General rule is, if a boss is busy casting mechanics, he wont autoattack you, meaning you're taking little to no damage, which makes your grit migitation useless.
Your Grit migitation is also less relevant in raidaoe phases.
If everyone is taking 10k raidaoe damage and you reduce it to 8k raidaoe damage thanks to tankstance ONLY on yourself on top of having a personal healer-regen, that 2k extra migitation thanks to grit was also useless, as the healers still have to use aoe healing speals that heal for 10k HP for everyone else, which will hit everyone including you, the tank. Resulting into unnecessary Overheal.
And Lakshmi/Susano cast a lot of mechanics and plenty of raid aoe. Also watch out for other relevant downtime.

[aqskerorokero]

1 word：never.

[Elleia]

Also living the pug life, and while I don't tank savage myself I bring a friend that does. It depends on the group comp and whether or not the DPS use their aggro management tools. When we pug savage, we have a group of 3 DPS and one tank - the rest of our party is made up of randoms. At the very least, the 3 of us who play DPS use our aggro management abilities frequently and we've never had a problem. Typically our random DPS is either not good enough to come close to taking aggro or they use their abilities as well.

If anything, we had one O1S group where our friend had to stay in grit the whole fight because the healers were terrible (and he still died to auto attack damage, even with grit on) but that's not the norm. With a NIN he can get away with one powerslash combo before dropping grit; without one, he does a few combos before dropping it. If your issue is with the OT, ask them to shirk you on cooldown if it's not needed for any swaps to help you maintain aggro.