Did you know not performing as you think another player should in a group

[HyoMinPark]

You certainly seem the opposite of this thing you said in your profile.
"I love this game, and I love the people I have met through it. I would not trade them for the world. "
Its all about the game to you it seems..Not the people who play the game.

Personal attacks certainly don't help to get your point of polite and courteous treatment of others across.

My profile quote is in reference to my friends that I have made in this game that I speak to on a daily basis that have helped me through difficult times in my life during the almost two years I have played. Not randoms in Duty Finder, although some are very memorable and wonderful people I hope to get matched up with again someday. But, thank you for taking my profile quote completely and totally out of context.


But you are right: we aren't accomplishing anything. If you are fine with subpar play and people intentionally playing their roles inadequately, then you do you. A lot of us prefer playing with individuals open to advice on how to improve, and not just playing badly because "my sub and I can play how I want."

Have a wonderful evening.

[ArcanoJones]

Personal attacks certainly don't help to get your point of polite and courteous treatment of others across. But you are right: we aren't accomplishing anything. If you are fine with subpar play and people intentionally playing their roles inadequately, then you do you. A lot of us prefer playing with individuals open to advice on how to improve, and not just playing badly because "my sub and I can play how I want."

Have a wonderful evening.

Sorry if its seems like a personal attack I apoligiize. Maybe it was to harsh. But you guys are all attacking me for saying I am not going to kick somebody just because they are not performing with perfect efficiency. If the group is not wiping and completing the dungeon then its not even an issue regardless of what they are doing. You guys seem to be saying that if they are making the dungeon run any longer than it needs to be there going to get kicked. That shows the game is more important that the person to me. I just pointed it out to you is all. Nothing personal.

[magnanimousCynic]

just because they are not performing with perfect efficiency.

Who's asking for perfection? Expecting perfection for Expert Roulette, or anything outside of Savage for that matter, is completely unrealistic.

We're asking for PASSABLE knowledge of your class and the proper rotations, not spamming your weakest move or using a GCD once every 5 seconds. I don't expect savage raiders in my Expert Roulette, I expect people to not use their single target rotation on large dungeon pulls. I expect people to know that standing in AoEs is bad 99% of the time. I expect people to press a DPS cooldown at least once a dungeon. I expect people to know the most essential mechanics of a boss fight that can cause wipes or deaths. I expect people to use current level gear (AF3 + level 67-70 Accessories) and not level 50 or 60 equipment.

I'll do an example for RDM, a Job many consider the easiest DPS to play:

Passable RDM:

• Tries to avoid wasting GCDs by casting spells as often as possible, mechanics permitting.

• Tries to avoid hardcasting VerThunder or VerAero.

• Tries to avoid using Dualcast on Jolt I/II, Impact, and VerFire/VerStone.

• Uses Scatter for big pulls.

• Only uses Melee combo when it is Enchanted.

Underperforming RDM:

• Has frequent downtime between GCDs.

• Hardcasts VerThunder or VerAero often.

• Uses Dualcast on Jolt I/II, Impact, and VerFire/VerStone often.

• Uses Scatter for single target or not used for big pulls.

• Often uses Melee Combo without the White and Black Mana needed for the Enchanted version.

• Uses Tether /s

[MoroMurasaki]

Arcano I have a question for you.

I don't know if you've gotten to the end of the MSQ content but right now one of the last duties called The Royal Menagerie. If you haven't done it yourself you can see videos on youtube so you have an idea of what to expect.

It is (for main story content) a rather difficult fight but the tomestone of verity/creation gear, omega normal and savage raids and the continuation of the main story of the game is all locked behind this one fight.

Again this argument is sort of contingent on you understanding this fight, I will pull up videos for you if you ask.

The question I have is are you okay with never moving forward with the main story? You could not clear this fight with the caliber of player you are defending. You couldn't even outgear it because any gear upgrades other than crafted gear (which at level 70 is millions of gil per set) are locked behind it.

The only way you get to clear this is by queueing and getting some competent players. Again you don't need to be a savage raider or anything but you need a basic understanding of your job as magnanimousCynic points out above.

Would you burden every other player in the game with carrying these people through that content? Because frankly I've had to carry plenty of people on this fight and it can get rough.

What is your solution to this? Do those players need to improve then? Do they have to never progress their main story because they can't clear this? Are you telling the rest of us to just suck it up and carry them? Because for all your talk of "let people play however they want" it would be sort of hypocritical of you to tell me I have to carry these people for my Trial Roulette every day.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Sorry if its seems like a personal attack I apoligiize. Maybe it was to harsh. But you guys are all attacking me for saying I am not going to kick somebody just because they are not performing with perfect efficiency. If the group is not wiping and completing the dungeon then its not even an issue regardless of what they are doing. You guys seem to be saying that if they are making the dungeon run any longer than it needs to be there going to get kicked. That shows the game is more important that the person to me. I just pointed it out to you is all. Nothing personal.

No one is attacking you, we simply disagree with your stance. For example sake, if I queue into a dungeon and notice the DPS aren't aoeing, I'll tell them they should as it deals high overall damage during larger pulls. If they refuse, I will kick them. Why? They are now intentionally doing something they were just told isn't as efficient. Why should their preferred playstyle supersede mine? If the Vote Kick goes through, majority ruled. You don't have to like it, but I don't like players who slow dungeons to a crawl.

[Gallus]

And what happens if that player is just learning the class and isn't very familiar with their single target rotations, let alone their aoe?

[Endeleon]

I'm so glad I moved to a Japanese world I don't have to deal with this crap. People just act like the adults they are and do their job, and deal with it if someone is underperforming instead of acting selfish and entitled.

[magnanimousCynic]

And what happens if that player is just learning the class and isn't very familiar with their single target rotations, let alone their aoe?

The deciding factor is the level of the player. Are we in Tam-Tara NM or Kugane Castle? Because the previous people and I were talking about bad players in Expert Roulette. If they aren't familiar with their class by 70 then they should look stuff up.

If you're talking about a player in a low level duty then of course it's ok as they are still new and (hopefully) open to learning. And when I'm in that type of low level duty I'll try my best to give advice if I see that they could use it.

[Zhamkyong]

~Common sense~

He just said what most of the playes have been trying to explain to ArcanoJones in all the thread but seems unable to understand.

A player who is in a lower level dungeon -EVEN if that player it's a mentor- learning the basis of a class, or just trying it out to figure it future mechanics of it at later levels when he has those basis is not a problem to anyone. If that player is willing to listen to a few tips -in a friendly way- all the better. Even at level 50 i expect to encounter this kind of thing with MCH, AST, DRK, RDM and SAM being the first in the list -MCH, AST and DRK because the starter level is 30, RDM and SAM because it is 50. In level terms, by the 60 every player willing to learn to use the class in a normal fashion should understand the basic mechanics of it by now. I am not talking about an EX or Savage example, just a normal and basic understanding that is enough for normal group content.

At level 70 a player should be more than capable to understand what it's optimal to his Job and what not. A Tank should not be learning how to maintain agro, a DPS should not be learning how to do his rotation -in a basic way-, and a healer should have enough experience to know what to expect of the other 2 to balance his healing and dps -being the first one the most important, naturally-. In the same fashion, a player who is doing a leveling roulette but has a high level class should not be hindering the rest of the party by, for example, refusing to use his Ver-spells or a BLM forcing his way with ice/lighting spells only.

This is a MMO with a COOP sense play style, every member of a group should be able to expect to give his part to acomplish the duty. And SHOULD do it. If a member in hindering the progress, there are a lot of reasons for it and i expect communication to know how to proceed. Is it new? Ok, i will give him a hand. Is it a returner? No worries. Is it trying a new rotation looking for his play style but respecting his job basics? Cool, try it. He needs to kill a certain mob for any reason? (Hunting log of a GC, for example). No for me, we can take a little detour to finish them in a flash.

Is it a player who is denying the basics of his job, being rude, and shutting anyones mouth with "you dont pay my sub" or "you cannot tell me hoy to play, you dont even have that class leveled" or anything of the sort? Or refusing to communicate? A kick in the ass out of the party.

One thing is being helpfull to people, the other is letting anyone do as he/she pleases despite everyone warnings.

[HyoMinPark]

I'm so glad I moved to a Japanese world I don't have to deal with this crap. People just act like the adults they are and do their job, and deal with it if someone is underperforming instead of acting selfish and entitled.

It's also selfish to willingly underperform one's job just because "it's my sub and I play the way I want to play." There's nothing wrong with individuals not wanting to carry players through content when the content is far enough into the game/leveling process that the underperformer should have the most basic understanding of their job and role in a group. My actual understanding from Japanese parties is that they still expect everyone to work together and pull their own weight when it comes to clearing content. Not that they just willingly carry bad players.

And what happens if that player is just learning the class and isn't very familiar with their single target rotations, let alone their aoe?

We are mostly discussing players in content closer to endgame (specifically, a lot of us have been talking about Level 70 dungeons and how players should have the most basic understanding of their job at such a level), not discussing players that have just unlocked a job and are still trying to understand how it works.

The point a lot of us have made still stands though: if we give a player advice on how to perform better and improve (e.g., when and how they should be using their AOE skills), it's common courtesy for the player to accept such advice with grace, especially since a lot of advice is devised out in a very polite way by the helpful people in this community. If the person continues to just blatantly underperform after being politely educated on more efficient ways to play their job, that is rude and a slap in the face to the party trying to help them, and if the party decides to dismiss the player from the duty, they are allowed to do so if the majority rules it's warranted.

We are not talking about brand new players or players that have just unlocked a job and that are still learning.