Did you know not performing as you think another player should in a group

[ArcanoJones]

The player they kicked has no consideration for the 3 other people he was slowing the run down for. As much as people looove doing the same thing over and over people have other things to do than let one person inefficiently and waste there time.

If its a PUG group formed through the duty finder. It is there to help new players going through the story find groups to complete that content. That is its purpose. Why do you think the reward is so massive . I get almost a full level for doing just 1 dungeon. It is motivation to do that content.You get a massive reward and then you expect to punish the people that make that reward possible. New players. If you want groups where everybody knows exactly what they are doing and have been in the dungeon and know it like the back of there hand. Don't do roulettes. You are kicking people for being new in a place that is created for new people. What a giant contradiction.

[HyoMinPark]

Incoming wall of text. Meant to reply to some of this stuff earlier, but got caught up with stuff and forgot about it. :v

If its a PUG group formed through the duty finder. It is there to help new players going through the story find groups to complete that content. That is its purpose. Why do you think the reward is so massive . I get almost a full level for doing just 1 dungeon. It is motivation to do that content.You get a massive reward and then you expect to punish the people that make that reward possible. New players. If you want groups where everybody knows exactly what they are doing and have been in the dungeon and know it like the back of there hand. Don't do roulettes. You are kicking people for being new in a place that is created for new people. What a giant contradiction.

I just want to point out, with regards to Destatiredux's example, he was talking about a Level 70 dungeon (Temple of the Fist). People should not be teaching the very basics of a job to someone who is at endgame. The rotation of using Fire spells until you don't have enough MP for any more, switching to Blizzard until full MP, and then switching back to Fire spells is the foundation of a BLM's rotation and extremely basic, not spamming Thunder on mobs. People should not be having to teach that to BLM's that are running level 70 Expert Roulette dungeons. And this goes for any job as well. It's a little different if they had been telling him how to use newer Stormblood skills, or fitting together a more optimal rotation for level 70 using said level 70 skills, but not for what Destatiredux pointed out. When a BLM reaches level 70, they should most definitely know how counterproductive it is to spam a single spell such as Thunder or Blizzard (though this is sadly not the case with quite a few of them, and really, a BLM should know by level 10 not to just spam a singular spell). Doesn't help that the BLM in question sounded like they responded with hostility when questioned why they were just spamming Thunder spells and not touching fire or ice spells. Hostility makes it less likely people will want to help someone, since the person in question probably wouldn't listen to the advice given anyways.

I imagine there is more to it than that. People tend to exaggerate the circumstances of things to make them self look in the right. Thats human nature. I never take either sides account as total truth.

And that's fine, but you still seem relatively new to this game, and it is surprising the amount of players you will meet in endgame content (and I'm not talking about just Expert Roulette dungeons, but Savage and Ex primals as well) that don't know the basics of their job and, quite frankly, don't really care to learn. There are, sadly, individuals out there that are perfectly okay with performing sub-optimally, and allowing the other 3/7/23 people in their party/raid/alliance carry them while they do next to nothing. I honestly don't have any trouble believing the Thunder Mage story because it's already common enough seeing Ice Mages, or poor DPS that don't want to AOE large trash packs, don't use the very basic self-buffs of their jobs (looking at you, DRGs that don't use Heavy Thrust or BRDs that don't upkeep Straight Shot), etc.. Which is an extremely sad state of affairs, but if people aren't willing to listen to advice or constructive criticism and willingly improve, then there isn't anything that can be done about it.

I'm all for helping people and extending advice on how to play jobs that I know inside and out optimally, or how to do a certain fight/handle certain mechanics, but I won't waste my breath on an individual that is reluctant to even listen, and reluctant to learn. And I most certainly won't waste my breath on people who are rude for no reason when you're trying to help them.

Who is defending it I am simply saying there is no way to verify that the guy never casted any other spell. Or whether this guy is being completely honest about his story of this person. And if the group never wiped because of it. It simply doesn't matter anyway. DO you know every single spell that every single member in an 8 man group casts. Or even a 4 man. Are you that aware of what every single person is doing every single second. I doubt it.

It's actually very easy to pay attention to individual's rotations in a duty. When I notice that things are taking longer than they should to die, I start looking at the DPS in the party and see what they're doing wrong. Example: tank does the huge first pull in one of the level 70 endgame dungeons, and they're taking an extremely long time to die, even though I am AOEing my heart out. Glance over at the DPS and see them sitting at full TP (melee/physical ranged) or full MP (casters), then I can very easily tell that they are single-targeting, and not using their AOE combos to make things go down faster. Zeroing in on the cast bars in the party list isn't exactly difficult to do either, for those who are casters (I have a tendency to watch other RDMs that I run with to see if they actually use Scatter for large pulls--quite a few of them continue to just single target Ver spell things).

It isn't always about "Well, we didn't wipe, so it's okay." I honestly dislike this mentality, because just because a party didn't wipe doesn't mean that it makes suboptimal play or behavior right. I could queue into an 8-man raid or Ex trial on my AST, and proceed to strictly DPS only, not help heal, not help raise, not draw cards, etc.. But just because my party does not wipe does not mean that my play was optimal or considerate to the group, especially the other healer. These parties and duties are team efforts, and if a player isn't willing to play in such a way that is beneficial to their team, then they don't have any place in that party.



With regards to Vote Dismissing, majority rules in a party. If you (using general "you" here), were kicked from a 4-man party, at least 1 other person aside from the individual initiating the kick agreed that kicking you was a viable option. If you were kicked from an 8-man party (be it from an 8-man raid or a 24-man alliance raid), then at least 3 other people decided you were a burden to the group. This logic also applies to speedrunning versus taking it slow: if the majority of the party are in agreement that one or the other is what they want to do, and there is 1 person who is reluctant to do what the majority want, unless that person is someone who is completely new to the dungeon (new tank or new healer, since new DPS don't have as much responsibility compared to those two roles with regards to the flow of a dungeon), majority decides. If the majority decides to kick the reluctant player, then it's not an abuse of the Vote Dismiss feature.

The only time I consider a Vote Dismiss abuse is if there is conspiracy by a pre-made to kick a player just because they can do so. I do not consider 3 people deciding to kick a sub-optimal player that is reluctant to listen to advice, reluctant to improve, and responding with nothing but hostility an abuse of the feature.

[DPZ2]

I just want to point out, with regards to Destatiredux's example, he was talking about a Level 70 dungeon (Temple of the Fist).

...

It's actually very easy to pay attention to individual's rotations in a duty.

I'd also like to point out that Destatiredux's example simply said "Rhalgr's", as though everyone playing the game immediately understood that it was one of the two level 70 'extreme' dungeon instances. A little bit more background would have meant fewer followup posts.

To your point about rotations, it may be easy for you to pay attention, but that does not mean it is easy for everyone. Personally, I have more than enough to do with my rotation and efforts to avoid the instance mechanics.

[HyoMinPark]

I'd also like to point out that Destatiredux's example simply said "Rhalgr's", as though everyone playing the game immediately understood that it was one of the two level 70 'extreme' dungeon instances. A little bit more background would have meant fewer followup posts.

His initial post about the BLM also mentioned that the BLM was level 70. Regardless of the content, a level 70 BLM should still have a basic understanding of the most basic aspects of their rotation. My point in response to the OP was countering where he was saying we are supposed to help new players learn. and shouldn't kick "new players" from content "designed for them to learn." A level 70 BLM may be a fresh 70, but they aren't a "new player," and, as I said to the OP, they should have an understanding of the most basic aspects of their rotation.

To your point about rotations, it may be easy for you to pay attention, but that does not mean it is easy for everyone. Personally, I have more than enough to do with my rotation and efforts to avoid the instance mechanics.

Even so, there are still things such as DoTs or debuffs that some jobs need to utilize (and should be utilizing), and that can be easily seen on mobs. I always notice when DRGs fail to upkeep Disembowel, or when SMNs don't DoT/Bane mobs, in part because I am watching my own DoT timers on mobs to know if/when to refresh them. Barring all of that, there are still in-game battle logs. While it's not possible to completely examine another player's rotation outside of using third-party software, things such as DoTs/debuffs and even just AOEing when they should be are easy enough to notice without examining with a microscope.

[Snow_Princess]

His initial post about the BLM also mentioned that the BLM was level 70. Regardless of the content, a level 70 BLM should still have a basic understanding of the most basic aspects of their rotation. My point in response to the OP was countering where he was saying we are supposedto help new players learn. and shouldn't kick "new players" from content "designed for them to learn." A level 70 BLM may be a fresh 70, but they aren't a "new player," and, as I said to the OP, they should have an understanding of the most basic aspects of their rotation.



Even so, there are still things such as DoTs or debuffs that some jobs need to utilize (and should be utilizing), and that can be easily seen on mobs. I always notice when DRGs fail to upkeep Disembowel, or when SMNs don't DoT/Bane mobs, in part because I am watching my own DoT timers on mobs to know if/when to refresh them. Barring all of that, there are still in-game battle logs. While it's not possible to completely examine another player's rotation outside of using third-party software, things such as DoTs/debuffs and even just AOEing when they should be are easy enough to notice without examining with a microscope.

Someone at lv 70 may very well be new, I seen a new lv 70 healer that could not handle co healing in delta normal. I think it is the side effect of giving out exp too fast. You are right, people at 70 should know their jobs, but there is plenty that do not, especially those that only have 1 job at 70 with nothing else played. I also seen a blizzard III> fire I >blizzard III.. etc blm who pulled 700 ish dps by the time delta 4.0 normal was over, they started out at around 1.6k or so but kept dying along with the bad rotations ended up at 700 dps.

[Destatiredux]

I'd also like to point out that Destatiredux's example simply said "Rhalgr's", as though everyone playing the game immediately understood that it was one of the two level 70 'extreme' dungeon instances. A little bit more background would have meant fewer followup posts.

To your point about rotations, it may be easy for you to pay attention, but that does not mean it is easy for everyone. Personally, I have more than enough to do with my rotation and efforts to avoid the instance mechanics.

You're entirely correct, and I apologize for the confusion. I refer to it as Rhalgr's because for some reason I always think of it as "Rhalgr's Fist" because of its location and I can never seem to remember the true name. I'd suppose I could try to remember it by thinking of the Temple of Doom if I didn't already associate that with Bardem's XD

[Bourne_Endeavor]

If its a PUG group formed through the duty finder. It is there to help new players going through the story find groups to complete that content. That is its purpose. Why do you think the reward is so massive . I get almost a full level for doing just 1 dungeon. It is motivation to do that content.You get a massive reward and then you expect to punish the people that make that reward possible. New players. If you want groups where everybody knows exactly what they are doing and have been in the dungeon and know it like the back of there hand. Don't do roulettes. You are kicking people for being new in a place that is created for new people. What a giant contradiction.

For the third time, today. No, that is not what Duty Finder is for. It exists solely as a means for people to queue into content. How they progress is entirely at their own discretion. The rewards are massive because no one would do it otherwise. I hate Leveling Roulette since I'll more likely end up with Copperbell than Doma Castle. If the rewards for completion weren't high enough, people would either leave immediately or not queue to begin with. If you want to explore and proceed through the dungeon at a leisurely pace, by all means, go ahead. If the three other players don't, you either adapt or don't complain when they boot you for slowing them down.

[Destatiredux]

Snip

You are both correct to an extent. Duty Finder is a means to access content for ALL players, not just new people. Likewise, Duty Roulettes were made as a separate function of the Duty Finder to ensure that veterans return to help new or returning players with content new to them while earning rewards. However, this is not the case for the Expert Roulette, which was made less as a function to help players new to that content and more to help veterans grind for tomes and gear. This is why the Expert Roulette only rolls the three most recent endgame dungeons, as most players who have reached level 70 (and who should know their job) have already cleared this content. This distinction is what the OP needs to realize when we say the BLM was not new (arguments of why a level 70 doesn't know his job notwithstanding) and perhaps the OP doesn't know that because he hasn't reached current endgame content to even know what the Expert Roulette is.