Did you know not performing as you think another player should in a group

[Paladinleeds]

Mammoth post time!

I take it you think you know your class perfectly Paldinleeds. Your telling me if someone told you your doing it wrong. You should be doing this instead. You would not say your wrong and if they pursued the matter further you would tell them to mind their own business. To that person there advice was ignored and they have done exactly what you guys are talking about and been answered in exactly the same way.

People have and still do give me advice. And I listen. I take things on board. This even includes my main, if there's something I haven't been aware of. I give advice where I feel I can give advice. Because I believe sharing knowledge and ideas benefits everyone. And if helping and suggesting things to people where I feel I can (and no, I don't think I know my class perfectly, but the understanding I do have of it, I will use to help people with to help them improve) makes me an elitist in your eyes, then that's a badge of honour for me. But if most people I give advice to are indeed taking my advice on board, clearly they don't feel I'm being elitist but rather helpful, no?

And if someone was nasty like "Oh you're rubbish, do this" then yeah, I might have an issue. But when people have given me advice (and they have, plenty times), they've been like "Try doing this instead" for the most part. Again, putting it in a suggestion format. When people suggest it to me, I'll roll with it and see what happens, and we can perhaps work together to find even better things (yes, I've done that too). When people phrase it as suggestions and ideas, why is it such a bad thing? Answer me that. What is so wrong about suggesting ideas to help people improve?

I get this is a game, but it's also a team environment. In a team environment you're expected to work together and support each other. This can also mean helping each other improve where you are able to. There's nothing in the ToS to say you can't suggest ideas for improvement. If someone is being rude about it, sure, potential harassment case, but a simple "Have you tried this?" type comment, how is that harassment? I'm not calling out their exact damage numbers (I don't know them, I don't parse), but certain things are just easily spotted. For example, a BLM only casting ice spells, or a DRG not using Heavy Thrust at all. Basic level class mechanics.

I had one person go "Erm, you gonna do mechanics?" to me in LakNM, because I was new and the Vril mechanic was throwing me for a loop. And guides just don't help me at all (I've tried, too much information loaded to me in one go). When I responded with "I don't know the fight, as I am new", they decided to drop the attitude and instead work with me to help me learn the fight, bit by bit, in a way that my learning style could work with. I think I did mention at the start that I was new and it was possible that was missed. There were no major problems after that because I listened, I worked with them on the mechanics. Still messed up the odd mechanic or two, but as they knew I was new to that fight, it wasn't a big deal, as I was trying. Nor was there any wipes. That is all most people want.

Now, you could say "my sub, my way" or something to that effect, but remember that this is an MMORPG. An MMORPG that likes to force group content on you more than most games. Now, this will sound nasty, but if someone really has that much of a problem with working as a group to get through content and the unwritten rules it brings with it, is this really the right game for them? Since the multiplayer experience is part of the overall package of the game. It's something that would be worth thinking about.

On the other hand, if someone is new to a fight and asks for a blind run, ok, no problem, I'll roll with that (I prefer to do that with people anyway, and help them patch up the things that don't get first time round). Or if someone can explain why they do such a thing, we can work it out. Perhaps one or both of the parties has a gap in their knowledge somewhere? Communication allows these barriers to be overcome, to share knowledge as I mentioned earlier. If I suggest something and someone says "Actually, that doesn't work." - ok, I'll take that on board, and research it further and try things out for myself later on to make sure I have the right information for future. Plus, by doing it in a "Have you tried this?" fashion, they could try it, and say "Actually, the way I was doing it works better". Ok, something for me to research. I'm willing to help plug gaps in my knowledge and help try new things out.

For example with Hyo and her BRD. If I suggested something, she could say "Actually, BRD doesn't work that way", and I'd be like "Ah fair enough". If someone puts forward that I'm wrong on something, then I'll look into it. Another example, BLM, I get the basics, but I can't play it effectively to save my life. I have a friend who mains BLM, so I'm going to work with her to help me really get to grips with the job.

Again, there'll be people there that can do it better than me (I'm not #1 player in the world, I don't put enough hours into it despite having over 5'000 hours in this game). They don't need to be #1, and I'm not trying to get them to be #1, I'm just trying to plug the gaping holes in their play. Subtle optimisations, aren't something I really care to point out. But for example, a black mage not managing fire/ice, is a really basic level thing that I can easily spot and therefore point out.

Now, if someone has a genuine reason why they can't manage it (say for example disability), that's something that absolutely will be accounted for, and I will try to work with them as best as I can. For someone who can't perform to the standard, I don't mind "carrying" them (oh I hate that term), so long as they're willing to give their best within reasonable limits as set out by their disability, since I consider that a "reasonable adjustment". But someone who just doesn't want to perform to a basic standard, then I have an issue there. Let's give an example of a disabled person and a reasonable adjustment I would be willing to make:

Player A has arthritis. Trying to keep up with all the movements involved causes them physical pain.
Reasonable adjustments: Using rescue where possible to get them out of mechanics (if a reasonably quick reaction is required, as this is likely to exacerbate the pain). Getting the group to go to them for stack mechanics.

I'm perfectly OK with doing that, to cover a "can't" situation. But a "won't" situation, can you not see why that might upset people? Especially since SE are paying us in-game to do this stuff. You can say that people who want perfect runs should use PF, and with that, I agree. But for someone who wants a reasonable level of competence (say the middle ground), that's where DF tends to lie. It pulls in so many different types of players, that it tends to amalgamate into a middle ground. Instead of pushing the already existing middle ground further in one direction, let's instead just get the extreme outliers (mitigating circumstances notwithstanding, but they will most likely have to speak up about said circumstances) who aren't willing to even try and adjust into PF, and keep DF as the middle ground. I would say that wanting to do a dungeon without respecting the core class mechanics etc whatsoever would count as an extreme outlier on one end (with those who want no mistake runs at the other end).

The fact is though, most of us don't care for perfection. We don't mind people making mistakes. We accept things go wrong, that we're human. We're also happy to work to cover differing skill grounds. But at the same time, we reasonably expect you to listen when someone gives explanations, especially the basics. If you try and find you're struggling and say "Sorry, I'm finding this difficult", most people will be like "Ok, no problem, just keep trying your best, you'll get it eventually". Or they may give extra tips and tricks to help make that new playstyle easier for you to get your head round. Communication is key here.

There's an average performance and courtesy level set by the community within DF. Extreme outliers to those are dealt with (for example someone demanding perfection, or someone not even getting the basics). Sometimes in a not so nice way, but usually in a supportive and well-intentioned way. The people giving the tips and tricks are more often than not trying to bring someone into the average level. Getting you within a standard deviation of the average. If we get you within the standard deviation, you're also less likely to have problems in the future with other players. So in a way, if you're using DF, it benefits you to take on board the advice that brings you to within the range of that standard deviation.

[technole]

Yeah, Red DPS is watching Netflix and hitting random button or something, and now doing less damage than a healer. The only thing is they are now caught red-handed because we see mobs taking too long to die, or maybe someone was watching their damage numbers. So they silently get dismissed. This isn't abusing the function, in-fact someone can just write in-chat something like: Are you going to do any damage or play at all?


So yeah, play well, be nice to people, and you have nothing to worry about. But if you want to solo queue for content thinking you are going to always getting away playing like a slouch. Good luck.

[hynaku]

How about this if I'm healer in the party and see you kick player for no good reason. I will just leave and see how tank and dps does without a healer and short one dps. Only reason see to kick a players is if there disconnected more than 5 minutes, there harassing other players, or there a bot. If kicking them because you don't think there doing good enough job. Then I would be kicking 85% of the tanks on the game because most of them suck at tanking.

[Dualgunner]

How about this if I'm healer in the party and see you kick player for no good reason. I will just leave and see how tank and dps does without a healer and short one dps. Only reason see to kick a players is if there disconnected more than 5 minutes, there harassing other players, or there a bot. If kicking them because you don't think there doing good enough job. Then I would be kicking 85% of the tanks on the game because most of them suck at tanking.

You're well within your right to leave for any reason.

[magnanimousCynic]

snip

So you're OK with a BLM doing nothing but Scathe? What about a DRG that does nothing but Auto Attack and Jump? A RDM using exclusively melee combo? A SMN using Titan-Egi while only spamming Ruin II?

Because all of these examples have personally happened to me before in my years of Leveling Roulette. Should I have let them stay in the party even though they're likely doing <10% of the DPS that they could've done with a normal rotation?

And don't say something like "it's hard to tell what the DPS are using". If they're a caster you can see almost everything they do by the cast bar or the flashy animations. If they're not a caster then watch their animations and MP/TP bars. Is it going down at a normal pace? Is it nearly or always full? Is it nearly or always empty? Are they using critical buffs for their class like BRD songs? Are they using AoE for large pulls?

When I heal I can tell what my DPS are using a majority of the time. If I clearly see them not contributing a passable amount of DPS to the group I speak up and ask "DPS, you should try to do X, It will help you do more damage." If they use the advice and use it in the duty I don't say anything else, unless needed, and give them the comm. If they complain to me or say they're too lazy then they're getting the boot.

There's a difference between not doing a great job and trolling the party by not putting forward any effort.

[missybee]

How about this if I'm healer in the party and see you kick player for no good reason. I will just leave and see how tank and dps does without a healer and short one dps.

You'd be replaced within a few minutes?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Sorry ..But I don't tell people how to play there character. If they ask for advice thats another story. But unsolicited comments on what they should be doing are usually going to be taken with a mind your own business attitude. That is human nature . And most people will react in that way. Thats just the way people are. If you think about it you would act the same. Especially now when you think you know what you are doing.

I don't know why people are suprised that people react this way.

And we are under no obligation to carry people through content. You've essentially said once I queue into a roulettle, I am beholden to the party and must accept their playstyle whatever it may be. DPS who refuse to aoe, thus prolonging the dungeon? Tanks not using cooldowns? Healers standing around idle? Doesn't matter. I should be forced to say because it's rude otherwise? Call me rude then because I'm not interested in carrying people who can't put forth an effort themselves. If they aren't willing to listen to advice, they can requeue or wait for someone else.

[Khaidal]

OP, I'm going to issue a challenge do you. Level your THM to 30. Test out which is more efficient and fun: Playing the job properly, or being thunder mage (you can sprinkle in scathe, sleep, and drain). Come back and share your experiences. We'll wait.

[SicariusSeven]

So far the only time I've seen people kicked for reasons other than AFK, DC, and being a jerk is when they don't do mechanics properly. If a person keeps messing it up after the third time it's been explained to them, I've seen most groups boot them cause clearly they are either lagging or being lazy and wanting to be carried.