Suggestion to combat Mentors intentionally inviting RMT Advertisers

[Snow_Princess]

You're fine don't worry. Sometimes my English isn't the best :P
I get where you're coming from but you saw what they do in my post, yeah? Its pretty dang easy to spot RMT with them all pretty much saying "Mentorspls invitation me join novice network". People just have to not invite the people who say that and are level 1 characters. Pretty simple if you ask me!

Now what I wish they'd do is not use lore friendly Sea Wolf names. I already get called RMT enough as it is.

Yes, I do and tbh " "Mentors pls invitation me join novice network" " is actually awkward wording.. hard to explain but it is not a fluid English and easy to spot. For lore sounding names, welp, the auto name generator does it.(There is a little dice icon when you go to make a character that does it in game. You could take that out but it does harm in other ways.)

It is obvious Snow Princess is trolling. For starters, Coeurl is relatively friendly and peaceful with little toxicity at most. As a result kicks don't need to happen very often at all in our Novice Network, let alone anyone seek an excuse to kick someone, especially since that would just create toxicity which, for the most part, our server's community strives to keep out. Furthermore what reason would we need to name and shame someone for inviting someone into the Novice Network? That is just utterly ridiculous. Also what Dhembryda said is what has actually been said there and we did discuss that in length in our Novice Network, but I don't think it will end there. This suggestion is not made to promote abuse of kicking powers, and frankly if anyone is abusing their Mentor moderator capabilities they need to be reported so their crown can be stripped from them anyway. This suggestion is so that we Mentors can find out if any particular Mentors are intentionally letting RMT Advertisers into the Novice Network so we can report them to Square Enix rather than ask Square Enix to review the invites themselves for a potential suspect.

I am not trolling, your suggestion only provokes more kick abuse, so I offered a better reasonable suggestion. I would also like to take away 1 mentor = kick abuse. Some people use it for simply disagreeing with each other on the NN so... so say something like you suggested will not be abused is rofl worthy. I do not think it is a good idea to say "Oh lets make changes to ALL servers" that might be damaging all to but one.

You really think it is a good idea to change the game that may only be good for one server but harmful for the rest?

Your suggestion does not address the CORE of the issue where mine does so.... I also find it funny you sate "For starters, Coeurl is relatively friendly and peaceful with little toxicity at most." While you want an option added to fight "toxicity" (inviting RMT intentionally) to kick such acts. In the end, all your "solution" does is name shame and abuse, I am only trying to help in offering a what might be a better idea to address the core of the issue, and yet I am the troll? 10/10.

then we know who the Mentor inviting that trash into the Novice Network is and not only can we report them for it but also kick them out of the Network.

Yeah it will be abused:
"Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

I've heard tales of bots that actually ask to be added and the unsuspecting mentor adds them as requested... hardly their fault if they do.

But the bigger thing... you don't have to be in the novice network to invite someone to it. Even if they were in the network, kicking them out (!) wouldn't fix anything.

More reason why I suggested:

If this is really a problem, have better ideas? like maybe enacting a RMT kick option for leafs that remove them for longer and auto reports them to gms?

^this way if someone DOES try to abuse it, the gms see that as well and can take action on the person.

[worldofneil]

then we know who the Mentor inviting that trash into the Novice Network is and not only can we report them for it but also kick them out of the Network.

I've heard tales of bots that actually ask to be added and the unsuspecting mentor adds them as requested... hardly their fault if they do.

But the bigger thing... you don't have to be in the novice network to invite someone to it. Even if they were in the network, kicking them out (!) wouldn't fix anything.

[Joe777]

It has just come to my attention that anyone with a crown, whether in the Novice Network or not, can send people invites to join the Novice Network. This needs changing. It should be made so that only Mentors actually in the Novice Network can invite people into it. Right now the way it is with invites makes it easy for anyone with a crown to fly under the radar and invite the RMT Advertisers. It also makes it hard to detect who is inviting them, and spread the knowledge not to when the RMT Advertiser asks, in the event the Mentor is unaware of the situation.

[Snow_Princess]

If a Mentor kicks another Mentor over inviting an RMT Advertiser and has only done it once and is not repeating then someone is indeed abusing their kick power and has no business being a Novice Network Mentor in the first place. Furthermore, anyone that is like that is already in a position to abuse their power and would not be given further reason to do so, which means they have already done enough to be reported for power abuse.Also you seem quite intent on the whole naming and shaming bit. If anyone tries to use this suggestion for that it means they name and shame already and, quite frankly, are not to be taken seriously if said naming and shaming is a constant and unfounded. Furthermore, this idea is not intended to get someone in trouble if they did invite the RMT Advertiser while not knowing that is what they are. If it is used for such then whoever filed the report is the one who should be reported.

Yes Coeurl is a nice and friendly server but that does not mean we are free of people who would do wrong. We also do not know if there even is anyone intentionally inviting the RMT Advertisers so they can drop their add. The whole reason I made this suggestion is to see if one Mentor is repeatedly inviting the RMT Advertiser rather than them being invited by accident or request of the RMT Advertiser with the Mentor not knowing who they are because they use name generator to get a legit character name.

As a matter of fact, I daresay your concerns are not as founded as you may think since some servers are closed anyway and don't get new people to invite to Novice Network that often, or deal with new characters bypassing bans/blacklists. And even if your concerns are founded Square Enix would have to look over every single invitation to the Novice Network to pinpoint a Mentor worthy of banning from the Novice Network without someone reporting the incidents. My idea basically would save both Mentors and GMs time is all. I'm sorry if your server has you so conditioned to think the worst.

hmm again I have to say point missed. You are simply ignoring my idea for no reason. If you want a proper debate, you are supposed to list the pros and cons of yours and compare them to the pros and cons of mine. It is your view we should ignore the risks of power abuse, and this being the internet that is laughable. When I see mentors kick other mentors purely from disagreeing with them, you have to question if your utopia view transverse all servers, and it is likely a biased view. To be unwilling to accept there is a chance of abuse is mind boggling to me. Despite all that ignoring all that, you did not address the crucial point I had to you. Your suggestion does not attack the root problem at all, and assuming people are intentionally inviting RMT Advertisers. This alone destroys your own argument that your sever is a utopia where no one will abuse the power you are proposing to give people.

The fact you stated "The thing is though (at least when it happens on our server) the RMT Advertiser leaves after advertising" shows you are completely ignoring my suggestion. Why is this? why are you not recognizing my idea at all and commenting at that and just defending yours? I am not dismissing this is a problem, just your solution while trying to help with a better one.

This is why I proposed an auto report to GMs while banning the person from chat, if this feature is abused then the GM goes after the abuser, its very simple, and ofc have that warning pop up in case of miss-clicks.

Oh I forgot a part of it, it is in one of my past posts but basically it is also my idea for this, when you click on this option "report and dismiss for RMT" it also bans them from returning, giving this debuff even if they left already. This will flag an urgency GM report so they take care of it with in 10 mins or so like most reports that are seen as such. Allow gms to at least temp ban people on the spot right away for RMT advertisings.

On the internet, especially stuff like this, you have to assume the worst. I can't back the idea because of the abuse it would bring to some servers. Princess's idea would save mentors time, as you can have the RMT reported and kicked in one fell swoop. Hey, even include the mentor who invited them in the report automatically. But RMT is something that needs to be brought to the GMs attention, so they know the characters doing it and can act on it. Saving the GMs time on this isn't something you should be doing. They cannot police every single character, you absolutely have to point out the RMT to them. Especially given how FFXIV doesn't have the staff for live GMs doing rounds banning as they see.

Louisoix is a bit like your server, nice, friendly, and supportive. But let's be fair, the internet has the tendency to bring out the worst in people because of the perceived anonymity they have.

This^

It has just come to my attention that anyone with a crown, whether in the Novice Network or not, can send people invites to join the Novice Network. This needs changing. It should be made so that only Mentors actually in the Novice Network can invite people into it. Right now the way it is with invites makes it easy for anyone with a crown to fly under the radar and invite the RMT Advertisers. It also makes it hard to detect who is inviting them, and spread the knowledge not to when the RMT Advertiser asks, in the event the Mentor is unaware of the situation.

Yes that was pointed out earlier. More reason for me to support dismissing your "solution" you just want to name shame people/target people.

[Joe777]

hmm again I have to say point missed. You are simply ignoring my idea for no reason. If you want a proper debate, you are supposed to list the pros and cons of yours and compare them to the pros and cons of mine. It is your view we should ignore the risks of power abuse, and this being the internet that is laughable. When I see mentors kick other mentors purely from disagreeing with them, you have to question if your utopia view transverse all servers, and it is likely a biased view. To be unwilling to accept there is a chance of abuse is mind boggling to me. Despite all that ignoring all that, you did not address the crucial point I had to you. Your suggestion does not attack the root problem at all, and assuming people are intentionally inviting RMT Advertisers. This alone destroys your own argument that your sever is a utopia where no one will abuse the power you are proposing to give people.

The fact you stated "The thing is though (at least when it happens on our server) the RMT Advertiser leaves after advertising" shows you are completely ignoring my suggestion. Why is this? why are you not recognizing my idea at all and commenting at that and just defending yours? I am not dismissing this is a problem, just your solution while trying to help with a better one.





This^



Yes that was pointed out earlier. More reason for me to support dismissing your "solution" you just want to name shame people/target people.

If you truly want me to debate your statement then fine, I will humor you. However, I make mention I never made this suggestion as a debate in the first place, just a means for players to help root out problematic invites to the Novice Network. I also do not intend to debate you further after this post so please don't try, it will be ignored.

To begin with, the fact that you are so bent on my suggestion supposedly promoting both naming and shaming and power abuse honestly says you are dealing with people on a daily basis that could very well do so. If this is the case they are already doing it and should already be getting dealt with.

Next I will address your thoughts on me not acknowledging your suggestion. Do I necessarily have to say anything to prove I do or do not? If you think me initially saying you are trolling is making you doubt this then you need not worry about that. You defend your idea just as strongly as I defend mine you know. Do you see me trying to find fault in yours though? No, you do not. Why? Let us first look at what would happen if someone did report someone for RMT. As it stands right now it honestly does no good. If your idea was implemented then in order for Square Enix to see that someone is intentionally inviting the RMT Advertiser into the Novice Network it would mean that reports would send screenshots of the reportee's chat log to them. Can that happen? Not much reason it cannot I guess. Will it? Should it? Does it? Only Square Enix can tell. Beyond that, it would require multiple reports to provide proof of this, and what if multiple Mentors are involved? Sure you can ask this at my idea too, but the bottom line is both of us are trying to come up with ways to combat a potential problem, yet you insist on attacking mine while I do not. This is why I called troll attempt. Not everything has to be a debate you know. Again I am sorry you have such paranoia of abuse but get over it. If it gets abused it can be dealt with the same as any other abuse, but that is if, and as I said before: such abuse could only happen if a power abuser is already present, in which case deal with them now rather than later. And don't use the internet's state as an excuse, because frankly I could argue no one takes the internet seriously as a counterpoint.

Now let us address your attack on me saying my server is, as you put it, a utopia and how I could be worrying about things if it wasn't. For starters, I never said it was that nice. No server is that nice, sadly. However, ours is minimal toxicity with its share of problems. As a community though we try to combat these problems. However, we can only do so much without sufficient evidence to report potentially punishable offenses. I am sure every server deals with their share of problems. Our server is open so we deal with RMT. So in short trying to call contradiction on how I regard my server is a moot point here.

Finally, your last statement on my more recent post. Once again, I call trolling. That said, I think we are done here. You have your acknowledgement so I bid you good day.

[Snow_Princess]

Calls me troll, states will not talk to me, continuously misses my point, thinks players should take the jobs of gms, gms should be left out in taking care of RMT reports, thinks players do a better job at RMT advertising monitoring, can't see Circular reasoning of saying no one is toxic, no one will abuse the power and yet people are always intentionally inviting RMT Advertisers.

10/10 , that is the TDLR for people, if you can't deal with people pointing out faults in your ideas, and not listen to them and ignore everything people say, why even post? This is not a recent post, this is not troll:

I've heard tales of bots that actually ask to be added and the unsuspecting mentor adds them as requested... hardly their fault if they do.

But the bigger thing... you don't have to be in the novice network to invite someone to it. Even if they were in the network, kicking them out (!) wouldn't fix anything.

It is post number 17, you commenting like it was new news is post number #29. Is it a common thing to call people trolls for disagreeing with you? or pointing out you missed something and did not comment? Because that is not the meaning of the word.
Who thinks this should be supported? or should the problem be fixed by what I proposed?

I will not support a change to the game to enable more kick abuse if the person can't give a good enough case for wanting the change in question, it is not attacking at all. GMs are there to handle RMT advertisements not the players. By your "it should be player handled, not the gms" lets let players ban players, I wonder how well that will go. it is not paranoia. I am pointing out a legitimate flaw in your proposed solution while refusing to work with me.

[Joe777]

post number 17

I did not notice someone had said that actually. I learned of it in-game afterward, which is why I posted what I did about it in a later post and comment on the fact it should not be possible to do so.

[Taika]

I saw a RMT bot with a player name shout today in Limsa to ask for a NN invite. It shouted "Mentors pls invitation me join novice network" and had a normal player name, so there was no way for anyone to know it was a RMT bot (other than it later shouting gilselling advertisement).

[Snow_Princess]

I did not notice someone had said that actually. I learned of it in-game afterward, which is why I posted what I did about it in a later post and comment on the fact it should not be possible to do so.

Are you going to take back calling me a troll for pointing out you missed that? You did not see it because you are not reading, you should take the time to understand what people are saying. There is a reason I said countless times you are missing the point. It is very offensives to call someone a troll that is trying to help your cause, but you are too biased that your solution is the only way, and not seeing it has flaws. You chose to ignore my idea completely instead of maybe using it with yours to form a better idea or feed off the input in some way. No I am not a troll for you not taking the time to understand what people are saying. How did your miss post number 17 ,18, and 20 and only commented on 19? you need take your time and understand what people are saying, these forums are not going anywhere in the next hour or day or something.

You can't just stand there, call me a troll then go "oh i did not see that post" you have a bit more to say.....

I have to both agree and disagree with Snow princess. First of all, kicking a mentor as Joe would do probably won't help, as others have pointed out it is easy to invite RMT bots on accident.
BUT Snow Princess' idea is just as easily abused, and affects bots about as much as reporting the marketplace ones. That means it doesn't. They just make new ones, stand in their starting city and shout for invites. So I do think to solve this problem, you would have to get the mentors to be a little more careful about inviting people. You don't have to do a full interview, but just sending a tell asking to confirm wanting to join would be enough to eliminate the possibility of a bot. The only other solution to this i think would be some kind of captcha before joining, but that would only inconvenience actual players.

How does it get easily abused if the GM will take action on the person abusing it? I did forget how easy they are replaced though, that still exists as a problem on other servers? I thought they would of had some kind of countermeasure for replacing bots so easily.

I saw a RMT bot with a player name shout today in Limsa to ask for a NN invite. It shouted "Mentors pls invitation me join novice network" and had a normal player name, so there was no way for anyone to know it was a RMT bot (other than it later shouting gilselling advertisement).

It is not clear English though so it would be easy to spot to simply ask them a question. However, the problem is expecting everyone to know that and it that alone will not solve anything.

[Taika]

It is not clear English though so it would be easy to spot to simply ask them a question. However, the problem is expecting everyone to know that and it that alone will not solve anything.

On EU server that doesn't say much. :P And it might be a new player who doesn't know how to respond to /tells etc. I think it's actually better to just assume a person who's asking for an invite is really a new player and invite them with the risk of them being a gilseller bot (of course it's a good idea also to check if they're shouting RMT advertisement before ). It's better to make a mistake and invite a bot than scare a newbie away imho.