A simple revamp to Cleric Stance that might fix raid balancing..

[Maku]

It has been said time and again that SE does'nt factor in healer DPS when developing.

Healers who do DPS can make up for very slightly not up to snuff DPSers that are lacking.


Healers are not supposed to need to DPS. If they should or not is a totally different conversation.

Think of healers as the repairmen. We fix you up when you stand in an AoE or get hit by accedent or unavoidable damage. We fix the DPS checks by helping with the DPS.

We just fill in when needed. If you develop having the "helpers" as requirements then you have no one to make up for others anymore because we are now required and now we might need someone to make up for our lack of DPS.

Think about it. If a DPS messes up and gets hit in by an AoE then we have to heal them. Then add on top of the fact that that DPS might not be performing where they need to. Now we have two people that are under-performing even though only one person messed up.

It just isn't a good equation.

[Ogulbuk]

Know what I would like to see? Make healer damage based off Int again, and give healers a passive int buff based on how much health, in average, tanks have. If the average tank health is at 75%, you get half the buff. If it's at 60% you get no damage buff.

[Maku]

Know what I would like to see? Make healer damage based off Int again, and give healers a passive int buff based on how much health, in average, tanks have. If the average tank health is at 75%, you get half the buff. If it's at 60% you get no damage buff.

Why? So you tanks can be "less" scared? A good healer wont let you die. We might let you have around 15% HP before we use a oGCD to complete heal you or two if it isn't a WHM but we won't let you die. Let us do our job and just keep hate. If you are cycling CDs and dodging stuff like you should then if you die it is our fault and we will reset and change our strat for pushing DPS or not. But if we don't then just ignore your own health bar and do your stuff and let us do our stuff.

[Ogulbuk]

Why? So you tanks can be "less" scared? A good healer wont let you die. We might let you have around 15% HP before we use a oGCD to complete heal you or two if it isn't a WHM but we won't let you die. Let us do our job and just keep hate. If you are cycling CDs and dodging stuff like you should then if you die it is our fault and we will reset and change our strat for pushing DPS or not. But if we don't then just ignore your own health bar and do your stuff and let us do our stuff.

You realize 2 out of 3 tanks have important abilities that do less damage the less HP they have? The fact that we have full offensive rotations instead of a button to spam pretty much means by design our secondary job is to deal damage. Keeping a PLD or War at 15% just so you can spam your Stone/Ruin/Malefic(lol) is counter productive. If you going to be counter productive for the team, may as well make sure you are very well aware of it.

[Sebazy]

Keeping a PLD or War at 15% just so you can spam your Stone/Ruin/Malefic(lol) is counter productive.

And on the flipside, I can do anything from 2 to 4 times more DPS than a decent tank in the current expert roulette dungeons (Although it's worth noting that the opposite seems to be the case in raids for now with Tanks generally edging out Healers).

[Ogulbuk]

And on the flipside, I can do anything from 2 to 4 times more DPS than a decent tank in the current expert roulette dungeons (Although it's worth noting that the opposite seems to be the case in raids for now with Tanks generally edging out Healers).

Because it's all spamming AoE, that for some reason* is way more efficient for healers than for tanks (in great part because of str stat scaling, but I would not get too attached to MND damage scaling, we all saw it taken away from tanks, you know it likely be the same in 5.0 for healers.)

[Maku]

You realize 2 out of 3 tanks have important abilities that do less damage the less HP they have? The fact that we have full offensive rotations instead of a button to spam pretty much means by design our secondary job is to deal damage. Keeping a PLD or War at 15% just so you can spam your Stone/Ruin/Malefic(lol) is counter productive. If you going to be counter productive for the team, may as well make sure you are very well aware of it.

Oh really? You think keeping you at 100% for the ONE PLD ability "Spirits Within" and the ONE WAR ability "Upheaval" that are affected by current HP is more important than a healer being able to push DPS?

Tell me, why are these two abilities, one for each tank, all that important?

Please, your argument is so convoluted and self serving it isn't even funny.

Because it's all spamming AoE, that for some reason* is way more efficient for healers than for tanks (in great part because of str stat scaling, but I would not get too attached to MND damage scaling, we all saw it taken away from tanks, you know it likely be the same in 5.0 for healers.)

They won't take MND away from our damage scaling. If they did it would go back in INT and they would give us Cleric back again. The situation is totally different. Tanks had STR as a secondary stat already and thus had a higher number than our INT stats. So no, I am not worried about this at all.

[Ogulbuk]

Why bother? I'm sure you will continue spamming your 220 pot GCD regardless and blame the other healer when the tank falls to a buster.

But what the hell, in case you have any honestly in your curiosity:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...s_on_upheaval/

Snip from that link:

Why is Upheaval hitting harder than a Fell Cleave? Upheaval gets buffed by Defiance, Thrill of Battle and Unchained. Because of this the true potency of this Upheaval is 540 and therefore more than a Fell Cleave. Slashing debuff, Storm's Eye and Berserk will boost the potency up to 912. Getting a direct crit on this is absolutely insane. My highest Upheaval in i320~ hit for 37k (with party buffs, no personal balance).

This is, provided the tank is full HP, every 30s Upheaval could in theory do more than Fell Cleve for just 20 BG. You think that 220 Malefic III GCD is still worth more than a heal GCD?

They won't take MND away from our damage scaling. If they did it would go back in INT and they would give us Cleric back again. The situation is totally different. Tanks had STR as a secondary stat already and thus had a higher number than our INT stats. So no, I am not worried about this at all.

Nor was any tank until they revealed it. But hey, you may get lucky with your draw and they may not pull the "let's give healers INT as a secondary stat" card.

[Maku]

Why bother? I'm sure you will continue spamming your 220 pot GCD regardless and blame the other healer when the tank falls to a buster.

Ok, we be talking about different things. I don't let tanks fall that low in raid content.

And yes, if all those abilities are used at the same time as your reddit post says that 540 potency is awesome. If you include everything else that 910 is amazing. But that is snap shot of damage that can not be sustained for extended periods of time.

As you stated yourself, in non-raid situations though AoEs are the king and Healers will out DPS a full HP WAR, even on the bosses our DPS will be more than a full HP WAR due to not having guaranteed access to all the other debuffs required to get that 920 potency.

But also, you have proven 1 reason for 1 tank to be kept at full for a very short snap shot in time. The rest of the time though???

[Sebazy]

Because it's all spamming AoE

It could be because Donald Trump for all I care, it's significantly more effective and so that's how I'll gravitate towards playing.

Nor was any tank until they revealed it. But hey, you may get lucky with your draw and they may not pull the "let's give healers INT as a secondary stat" card.

Why would they? They've already curbed healer DPS somewhat significantly as part and parcel of the 4.0 rework for us.

We do decent (If resource expensive) AoE, but relatively lacklustre single target damage. Tanks are roughly the opposite. What's the issue with that?