Everything wrong with Feast (as in 4.06)

**itsoni** · 08-12-2017 04:05 AM

It's very easy to see what the big problems are and why barely anybody is actually enjoying the current state of Feast 4v4 (Ranked), but this somehow has slipped past the development/feedback team. The points I make here are from the experience in over 5000 matches played in total in Feast 4v4 alone. I will only be talking about the Combat System here.

1) The new CC system just does not work.

The main reason is because a DPS can be killed from 100% health in around 3 seconds purely through normal GCD w/ OGCD-spammy damage from both enemy DPS. A DRK can prevent all GCD heals for around 7 seconds every 10 seconds (15 with the resist trait on). A PLD for 5 seconds. The math just doesn't add up here, especially with the horrible amount of lag when a heal/shield is applied to a teammate which amplifies the issue.

There is too much CC happening in too short of a time, creating a hugely frustrating experience for any healer in queue. If not addressed, there won't be any healers left in queue at all.

2) Additional Actions

The above mentioned small casting window every 15 seconds actually makes this CC system much, much worse than the previous one in Heavensward. Yes there are traits such as Purify & Concentrate but these just aren't enough to deal with this issue. Muse is a must-have on every single healer. Sprint is never used by anyone other than Melee and even then, sometimes it's better to just take Safeguard and Recuperate.

These "Additional Actions" are some so limited and some so crucial to each Job that they should actually be available without taking up 1 of 2 Additional Actions. Perhaps move Muse to every single healers hotbar? Perhaps give everyone Sprint back and have Bolt as an "extra" Sprint?

3) Redundant Main Job Actions

There are some Job Actions some Jobs have that just miss the point entirely.

Astrologian has Deorbit instead of an actual healing ability, althrough Deorbit is a really cool skill if you can pull it off properly. 99% of the time, it's incorrectly used and when it is correctly used, it's gonna be Frontlines. Why not have Deorbit as an Additional Skill for all healers and give Astrologian something truly useful in a typical 4v4 Combat Scenario?

Warrior has extra damage instead of a CC. That "extra damage" is largely useless as the healer can not longer be interrupted through it. The CC itself can outright win matches and make the enemy healer useless during crucial moments for your DPS. The extra damage just doesn't make up for the lack of CC.

Red Mage has its whole burst locked behind the GCD. Samurai has a 3k potency Action with a Cast Time of 2s, meanwhile MNK can burst for 7k in 2 seconds or so. Samurai needs attention, the extra mobility and weak Chiten barely makes up for the lack of burst, considering the current 13k+ health pools.

4) The lack of OGCD's.

The reason why this is a problem is simple:
Less Buttons = Each Button has to has to have a Higher Potency.

Why is this a problem? It's because there's no longer any trickle/peel/damage. In Heavensward, there would be 3 main skill brackets of DPS players.

Low Damage/No Mechanical knowledge (Completely new, Bronze/Unranked)
Average Damage/Some Mechanical knowledge (Silver to Diamond)
High Consistent + Burst Damage/Full Mechanical knowledge (Diamond)

Now, there's no "Average" players left. Either players output High Damage, or not enough damage to take advantage of the enemy healer being CC'd by their Tank, which gives the healer too much room to heal. Nothing will die, even in culling 2+. It creates a very strong imbalance of players. There's no longer any "solo" potential as a DPS to make up for one other DPS's shortcomings.

The best way to fix this is to introduce more OGCD's, thus lowering the potencies of each other Job Action itself, while slightly increasing the power level of all Jobs. It gives all Jobs more options for them to deal with each situation more flexibly, instead of Spamming attacks all on the same player and hoping the Tank CC's the healer at the right time.

5) Tanks are not longer "Tanks"

Healers have to heal. DPS have to output damage. Tanks are now kill-enablers with slightly higher defense and some party utility, but no way to defend themselves properly.

Taking 4+ Stacks as a Tank is sure suicide - there's no way to outheal the incoming damage, even with the Tank stance on. At 2 Stacks without a Tank Stance, your healer will lose all their MP just on keeping you alive. This creates a Meta where everyone should take 1 stack, which worsens the above mentioned problems by a good margin.

End Notes

There are a few other issues but these are the main ones. Maybe parts of it don't add up correctly but its a long post I made in around 20m or so, eventually I'll edit any inaccuracies out.

If you disagree, feel free to explain why.

**Yoruno** · 08-12-2017 04:19 AM

They need to reinstate the old feast, balance the jobs a bit better remove PVE skills and make it only accessible once achieving level 60. Remove PVP rank from attaining the 50 points to put into skill barring any new player trying to join and giving a veteran the advantage. This new system doesn't make new players any better and just kills any sort of depth the game used to have. There are veteran melee players who are telling me they want to carry but don't want to resort to healing, they haven't had to in the past, and don't want to now just because healing is the best way to climb.

They need to also fix that 4v4 is accessible at level 30. This is going to cause a huge influx of alts, it is going to cause a huge influx of new players who have no idea what they're even doing. 8v8 training should be accessible at 30 but COMPETITIVE SHOULD NOT.

Feast 4v4 should've been kept as end-game content for people looking for the thrill of a real challenge. This is NOT a good way to build a new players confidence to PVP in any shape or form by setting the bar so low. Hence why we are seeing people coming on here making ridiculous threads about it being too hard. There were hardly any of these before, but now they're sprouting up everywhere like weeds. I think people forget that it is a competitive mode, there is a consequence to losing unlike the forgiving nature they are used to from playing PVE. "Oh you didn't beat the boss? Here's a 30% echo to help you!"

Square Enix hurry up and fix this mess.

**Stormfur** · 08-12-2017 04:20 AM

Another issue I'd hope they could address is the horrendous server lag between activating a skill and actually having it work. As an example, if I cast cover or Hallowed Ground, I can see the skill go off, the button greys out on my hotbar, but do I or my teammate get the effect? Nope.

They did it with mudras. Why not other actions too? I'm sure benediction and lustrate could be done this way too.

**Yoruno** · 08-12-2017 04:25 AM

Originally Posted by Stormfur

Another issue I'd hope they could address is the horrendous server lag between activating a skill and actually having it work. As an example, if I cast cover or Hallowed Ground, I can see the skill go off, the button greys out on my hotbar, but do I or my teammate get the effect? Nope.

They did it with mudras. Why not other actions too? I'm sure benediction and lustrate could be done this way too.

This was always the case even in heavensward PVP, they do this because you should learn to pre-determine that the incoming damage might be too much resulting in a death. This is not lag but simply animation delay. See the hallowed ground delay as shown below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8rOpj3JYqA

**Stormfur** · 08-12-2017 04:28 AM

Yeah.. I try. And most times it works..it's just that when it doesn't, it's really frustrating.

I'd rather be safe and use it than need it and not be able to get it off in time!

**Yoruno** · 08-12-2017 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by Stormfur

Yeah.. I try. And most times it works..it's just that when it doesn't, it's really frustrating.

I'd rather be safe and use it than need it and not be able to get it off in time!

I haven't played many games this season due to my inability to hide my disappointment at something that feels like the husk of a mode I used to play, but a lot of players tend to save their burst for half an HP bar. Spamming cure is necessary when a player is taking a huge amount of damage, however if necessary you can always cut out the animation of cure and immediately benediction if you believe that the player will die or there is a burst incoming. This is purely instinct but after playing several games you were learn to read when a player is closing in for a kill and try your best to combat it.

**Cynric** · 08-12-2017 06:22 AM

I'd like to chime in on the Samurai to note that the extra mobility and defense in Soten/ Chiten require you to sacrifice using your burst OGCD's to deal any damage to retreat, not present on other melee and the Cost of Meikyou is so high that you can't practically use it to rebuild kenki without sacrificing your next burst. The combo starters themselves don't generate enough kenki to make the resource worthwhile for everything you have to use.

**Paragnie** · 08-12-2017 08:26 AM

OPINION only!

From a Scholar perspective, I think the CC system is just right. Resistance duration trait is a must on healers, so it should be every 15 seconds.

Against Paladin: their 3 second stun makes Purify a much better choice, you can get at least 2 seconds off the stun. Silence isn't very effective against scholar because you have Lustrate. The idea is to focus on Broil-Lustrate or Adloquium healing and when silenced use Lustrate.

Against Dark Knight: since their stun is only 2 seconds, Purify might not be as good.

Using Purify before they stun you can also work, but requires a lot of skill. This works, I think, because the tank actually already stunned you on the server, but it has not shown up on your screen yet. So if you know a tank will stun you you can use Purify and have the stun debuff removed almost instantly. Of course this is a huge risk, and if you fail they get a full stun on you, but sometimes you just know it will work and feels amazing when you pull it off.

Tanks that try to CC the healer very often can be countered easily with Concentrate.
When a tank CCs you, they can't CC your team's DPS and so they do full damage.
Keeping notes about enemy tanks is a good way to keep track of their playstyles. You can adjust your additionals based on the player, not the class.

I think a lot of the complaints about CC are too one dimensional. If you're being CC'ed you should expect your tank to also be CCing the enemy. For example, your tank may have stunned the enemy healer just as you were stunned - now the situation is even. If your tank doesn't CC as well, then your enemy tank is just better, and they should win. Some games cannot be won and can be frustrating. Making sure you're focused on playing your best, rather than the unfairness of your team makeup, is in my opinion the most important thing to improve as a player. Complaining about how your team isn't ideal probably means you aren't focusing on what you should have done better that game.

I think making fun jokes about how your tank overstacked, or DPS did no damage, is fine because you probably had no chance to win the game. But you shouldn't do this in games that could have been won if you had played better. Very often when a player says "I couldn't have done anything", it's not true.

For example:
When playing against monks, if you know they can LB, staying close to them is a good idea. Usually monks will use their burst and then immediately LB. This gives you a window to knockback them to stop the combo, delaying their burst-LB combo for a while. But if you're positioned far from the team, you can't do this, and the monk might kill your party member.
Situations like this are also a mistake, and you could have done something about it. You could blame the Paladin or Dark Knight for not protecting your party member, but you had a role in that too.

Staying around the walls to "dodge" melee and caster LB is also another technique that can only be used if you're positioned correctly. If you succeed, you gain a huge advantage for your team because the enemy DPS wasted their LB.

Another common situation is when your melee is positioned so that you can't heal them. You can call this overextending, but it's also your job to be in position so that they can be aggressive. Positioning is an incredibly huge factor in this game. And so despite the fact that there are only "9 buttons" or so in this game, saying that you played perfectly is probably incorrect, so I believe there is no skill ceiling in this game. Maybe in pressing buttons and rotations, but definitely not in decision making.

**jameseoakes** · 08-12-2017 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by itsoni

It's very easy to see what the big problems are and why barely anybody is actually enjoying the current state of Feast 4v4 (Ranked), but this somehow has slipped past the development/feedback team. The points I make here are from the experience in over 5000 matches played in total in Feast 4v4 alone. I will only be talking about the Combat System here.

I'd agree with this, the CC feels like a problem, I know I'm on the lower end of the skill level but trying to heal when get chained CC'd is no fun and this is going drive out a lot of people wanting to heal (especially with the whole Nice job spam that seems to be required now).

**ThirdChild_ZKI** · 08-12-2017 10:08 AM

In trying to blanket "fix" PvP, SE's only set it back even further.

I have to admit, between that and the MCH issues, Stormblood hasn't been all that fun for me so far :/

Thread: Everything wrong with Feast (as in 4.06)

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Everything wrong with Feast (as in 4.06)