SCH adlo and succor

[Semirhage]

I get a good chuckle out of Scholars claiming the fairy just "feels so worthless and weak". It's so wimpy that it's only the highest potency regen tick in the entire game (Fey Union notwithstanding), and that's including the pet tax. And the Heavensward and Stormblood nerfs.

[technole]

So if you are overgeared it works..."SCH is trash tier if they have to manually heal"

Your argument now adds up to. 'I just reached i300 SCH, these dungeons are too hard to heal big pulls with SCH skills, I have to spam Adlo, it costs too much, please cut in half'.

No one was even i300 when we all got to Ala Mhigo let alone Susano Extreme, every normal pull is fine even with the free i290 AF gear. Now with 4.06 Excog potency you should be using that more liberally even at <50% HP tanks, and even the Fey Union buff is even better because 15y gives tanks more room to wiggle around AoEs before coming disconnected. So it's even easier now.

I get a good chuckle out of Scholars claiming the fairy just "feels so worthless and weak". It's so wimpy that it's only the highest potency regen tick in the entire game (Fey Union notwithstanding), and that's including the pet tax. And the Heavensward and Stormblood nerfs.

Shhh, that just makes too much sense. The more we become reasonable the less chance they buff the job!

[Vyriah]

(...)

Because MP management isn't the matter yet every one still come back to hit because "bad healers".

I don't think one single second that someone in the developpement team of this game actually though "we have to increase succor cost to make player think before that cast it", because to get to that conclusion you have to look what succor actualy does to noticce it doesn't do much. Its something that have to do with preventing damage vs healing it, and what succor preventing is generally not as high as raw numbers makes it look. But if there's no reason not to cast it if you though it would made raid healing easier and you're not dead set on doing much DPS possible, why not. It feels rewarding and isn't unfair to other healers, while extremly rarely being mandatory. And I'm not specially talking about top 5% savage raid environement, but basically any 8-players content. It's effect wasn't good enough already punishing in cas of abuse, there was no reason to adress it. The new SCH "MP management" doesn't exist, every just press the new mana boutton whenever its off CD. It's the exact opposite of management.
It even makes the game go backward in a weird way : if its alway on CD, it means that MP starvation only exist to make you push the mana boutton. And now one care about that. Especially SCH that was already doing real ressource management before, pressing that boutton every 2 minutes is just unneeded noise. I'm not sure how you could feel that misplaced arrogance about even doing it. Where's the management when there's only one obvious good solution ?

I get a good chuckle out of Scholars claiming the fairy just "feels so worthless and weak". It's so wimpy that it's only the highest potency regen tick in the entire game (Fey Union notwithstanding), and that's including the pet tax. And the Heavensward and Stormblood nerfs.

Is that a joke ?

It is still, again, the same thing over and over. Either your alone on a 4-man and that stronger fairy tick compensate global weaker hardcast spells. Or you're in 8-man and both tick cummulate. What you're saying is not less stupid, it's not like the game is a DoT contest or whatever. Those belong to different character playing different ways.

[Penthea]

So basically Scholar doesn't have any MP issues when they don't use their MP to heal

Lol I find that this is what some people are basically saying. "Use your Aetherflow stacks for healing instead of mana and you will have more mana" yea that would be possible if Aetherflow gave 12 stacks instead of just 3. But we don't so we have to use standard healing spells a lot anyway. You can to some degree use Aetherflow heals in place of those that cost mana as a form of mana management but Aetherflow is tied to some of sch's most important cds. Some fights demand that you save stacks for those cds to be able to deal with certain mechanics, instead of burning them all with Lustrates in place of Aldo or Physick for the sole purpose of conserving mana.

[Vyriah]

(...)

Healing requirement is really low on dungeon and there's a co healer in raid.
So yeah, indo ad whispering down end up being your most used tools. Even if you really want to help afterward, outside of poping CD succor efficiency gest halved after the first one so there's nothing you can reasonnably do as SCH in situatio where high heals are needed.

But then, you can physick heals the tank if you think that's what is needed at the moment. It's not optimized way of using the job but that don't makes it bad if you're not aiming for high end performance, everything goes right and the boss falls then it's fine.

[Penthea]

Healing requirement is really low on dungeon and there's a co healer in raid.

And? How does this change that savage and ex content typically has a lot of healing to do? You can't always heavily rely on Aetherflow to replace mana based healing in savage/ex. Unless you feel like frequently throwing yourself into the possibility of having nothing powerful to cast when a deadly mechanic happens, which in some cases would essentially doom the party to wipe.

Never mind how unfair it is to force the other healer to work harder because your so-called mana management makes you ill-equipped to deal with mechanics that demand a lot of healing and/or mitigation.

[Dregenfox]

And? How does this change that savage and ex content typically has a lot of healing to do? You can't always heavily rely on Aetherflow to replace mana based healing in savage/ex. Unless you feel like frequently throwing yourself into the possibility of having nothing powerful to cast when a deadly mechanic happens, which in some cases would essentially doom the party to wipe.

Never mind how unfair it is to force the other healer to work harder because your so-called mana management makes you ill-equipped to deal with mechanics that demand a lot of healing and/or mitigation.

I'm staying within 80-90% of my WHM's healing in everything up to o3s. IDK yet about o4s but I suspect it would be similar.

I cast maybe 20-21 succors total in that fight. I think I only adlo like 2-3 times, during dragon add and ninjas. The rest of the healing is purely fairy/dissipation/Aetherflow.

It's really not necessary for SCH to hardcast that many heals and still keep up with healing. I also get like 25% overheal compared to WHM's 35% usually, so we're not really that far off.

If you're having to spam Adlo/Succor in the fight it really just means your pt is failing too many mechanics. o2s fight itself is like 11-12 minutes long, and with dissipation spam I'll get like 18-20 AF off which is 50+ lustrates/indoms.

The thing with SCH is that they have just enough AF to cover a fight's mechanics, and anything more forces the SCH to start hardcasting adlos. So SCH will look good or bad depending on their party. A WHM can easily get 10000+ raw HPS in a fight but what is the point? Your group is probably meeting enrage with those numbers.

[Supersun]

Your argument now adds up to. 'I just reached i300 SCH, these dungeons are too hard to heal big pulls with SCH skills, I have to spam Adlo, it costs too much, please cut in half'.

No one was even i300 when we all got to Ala Mhigo let alone Susano Extreme, every normal pull is fine even with the free i290 AF gear. Now with 4.06 Excog potency you should be using that more liberally even at <50% HP tanks, and even the Fey Union buff is even better because 15y gives tanks more room to wiggle around AoEs before coming disconnected. So it's even easier now.

1) I haven't just hit i300. I've been sitting on it for a while. I've been a bit slow picking up new gear even though I have the currency for it, but I've still been doing the dungeons so I have a pretty good gauge at how they feel as an i300 Scholar. (Also of course normal pulls are fine. No one does normal pulls though, and the giant pulls is where the issue is. I can handle most of them, but I know every other healer isn't needing to call for an MP break before entering the boss room because you are empty and everything is on CD)

2) Missed the point entirely. I was saying that because you are i320 (and overgeared for the dungeons) that means your free healing threshold is good enough to heal through big pulls meaning that you don;t have to cast MP heals. At i300 which is still overgearing it slightly, but not much, the free healing threshold isn't enough to heal all the damage that the tank takes and the spell MP issue is magnified.

The point was pretty much the jest I made earlier. Scholar doesn't have any MP issues as long as they don't have to spend their MP to heal. If a scholar has to use his MP to heal the spells are too expensive and it's far too easy to OOM atm. This may not affect max ilvl scholars in savage atm, but it certainly affects those that are less than max ilvl, and it could easily kick scholars out of groups if future savage content requires more healing than 1 healer can handle, the moment a fight requires enough healing where the scholar needs to dip into his MP pool more often then now is the moment it'll be kicked for Ast.

[Vyriah]

And? How does this change that savage and ex content typically has a lot of healing to do? You can't always heavily rely on Aetherflow to replace mana based healing in savage/ex. Unless you feel like frequently throwing yourself into the possibility of having nothing powerful to cast when a deadly mechanic happens, which in some cases would essentially doom the party to wipe.

Never mind how unfair it is to force the other healer to work harder because your so-called mana management makes you ill-equipped to deal with mechanics that demand a lot of healing and/or mitigation.

I'm not sure about the question.

If you're playing SCH you have no on-demand AoE heal outside of succor, wich would prevent a wipe only if the impending doom is within that 150 potency shield (or 180, but we're already talking about CD usage then). You can't perform it well anyway.
That's why you have to be carefull about other tools like fey covenant or deployement tactics. Sacred soil is in a weird spot now that cleric stance is no more as it's hard to see when it'll be needed and when it's not, indo is more beneficial to your co-healer.

Unfair or not, you can't do what you can't do. It's a bit confusing since the job is currently in a very strange spot these succor won't help much even though you can cast them if you thing that's what the party need.

The more I look into the job, the more it looks like the job minor flaws in design are now in the front :
- ARR version is really clear : you reduce damage before, WHM heals after. This is simple and solid, its works perfectly. I'm not sure about people talking about SCH being OP "since its release" as both healer did what they had to do.
- HW went less in the mitigation healer and gave more cooldown. This time, it was working because skill you can use in cleric stance (fairy skills, damage reductions) on those you have to stance dance for (anything that heals). Again, it's still clear enough : use the first ones until you need to go for the new ones, with stronger option being more and more restrictive.

There's some irks in those, like shields being a bonus that was often not needed. But then, you could still chose to use them for safety purpose and everything was fine. But you didn't have to pause and just start thinking about the exact difference between preventing a damage and healing it. Your job was doing the former, and then got the possibility to do the later better if needed. That's something you can get in video game terms, in MMO terms and in FF XIV terms.

But now, what's the exact difference between sacred soil, succor, emergency tactics, deployement tactics, indo and whispering dawn ? Mostly, in thing like this better when everyone is spread, this is better when no one is taking damage for 21sec, this as no real use if there's no risk of player losing more than 100% of their HP in the next 30 sec, etc. And none of these have with is SCH supposed to do as clear as I could formulate it earlier. Absolutly everything about all this is emergent, none is designed.
They're powerful tools, but they're scatered tools, they don't belong to a single coherent and complet job.

And what I'm not saying here is that player are stupid or bad for not getting this. Look at how incredible friend that speak like being better than everyone else in this thread and say without any hesitation than fey union is what you need in dungeon. That's great and all, but actually rouse + whispering dawn will always be better. It have arround the same potency due to fairy still healing during whispering dawn but less uptime due fairy gauge charging per eather flow stacks used. It can be circunvalent by charging the gauge before entering the dungeon but it's a needlessly sophistaced answer just in order lock embrace, fey illumination and fey convenant that can bring more flexibility to a pool.
And there, the new manual for the good SCH. Wich still tells nothing about what kinf of healer is SCH who have now the HoT that barely do what SCH didn't already do. Get the gauge out and make it a buff that'll make fairy focus that target with slightly stronger spells for 30 sec on 2 minute CD, and you get about the same result. Gauge gimmick is here because no one knows what SCH is supposed to be anymore.

The SCH state is best illustrated by dissipassion. The skill do 3 things : getting your eather stacks full, giving you a 20% healing spell power increase and dismissing you fairy. But then, your abilitie used wiht the stacks aren't affect by the spell buff and it isn't added to the fairy gauge.
So players are using it to get more enrgy drain. Something that was quite obviously not made for.

[Trufrost]

What if we made Emergency tactics either a toggle or have aldo and succor reduce its CD by a couple of sec for each use.

What if we had deployment tactics no longer spread aldo and eye. It would instead for the next "x" cast of aldo and succor has those potency increased by "y". MP cost for "z" seconds is reduced by 50%