Paladin too overpowered, nerf their damage output!

[Aletin]

Why does DRK have to be the red-headed stepchild thats only ever optimal when one of the alternatives isnt?

Because thats how logic works? You can change DRK to any tank and it's the exact same. When one of three tanks isn't optimal in a two tank party, you take the other two.

I dont want to feel inferior just because I play what I enjoy.
And no, it's not nearly impossible. I do it just fine.

Well done, youre a special snowflake.
In my various snoopings around it shows you perform best on DRK, and I would guess you are most comfortable on also. Therefore, you would be doing more DPS on DRK than you would on PLD most of the time. The only person making you feel inferior is yourself.

[RLofOBFL]

The numbers show DRK is significantly behind WAR and PLD by 150~ dps where they are only 50~ apart so WAR is effectively 200~+ ahead of DRK. As of now that's the biggest issue. DRK, despite everything still isn't a very bad place due to TBN and the number of magic Tankbusters in this patch, o1, o2, o4, and Lakshimi that keep it relevant, however it still feels somewhat lacking in general mitigation. WAR works because not only is it the highest dps, but it can MT easier and has a wider variety of self sufficient short CD defense buffs. That's what it brings.

Interestingly someone I know who does Savage speed runs said DRK/WAR is optimal but I am not sure why, maybe invulns?

[VargasVermillion]

But when you're fighting a dragon that isn't going to dodge you and has probably relatively thicker scales. Then I'm going to take a big great axe to cut through their hide and do heavy damage.

What you say makes sense but technically by this logic SAM and especially MNK would be doing less damage than any two handed class in this scenario and PLD would be more effective than SAM due the the better durability of a straight sword (which contrary to what Katana worshipers think were sharp enough to sever limbs and the like). So overall pointing out the weapon types is and always will be a moot point when considering balance, and as I said PLD uses magic as well.

[Quri]

snip

The difference between DPS might be because DRK does the most damage during tank stance, PLD has the best party utilitiy, and WAR got the best Mitigation tools.
DRK:
Some utility
Weak mitigation tools
Highest damage dealing during tank stance
WAR:
Little utility
Best Mitigation tools with a fast cooldown.
Highest dps, but the weakest damage during tank stance.
PLD:
Best utility
Mitigation tools while plenty are on a long cooldown.
The middle when it comes to dps during tank stance and offense stance.
DPS difference between the three is small, but I think that's how they balance the tanks.
O1S for speed runs is where DRK/WAR shine at. A bunch of knockbacks, means that WAR/DRK gap closer can keep the damage uptime high.

[Launched]

The numbers show DRK is significantly behind WAR and PLD by 150~ dps where they are only 50~ apart so WAR is effectively 200~+ ahead of DRK.

At 75th percentile DRK is on average 145/65/140/60/190 dps behind WAR in each fight, and 105/35/30/50/190 behind WAR at 95th percentile. Not consistently 200+ dps. The biggest difference is on Neo Exdeath, but DRK still has more than double the amount of clears that WAR does so clearly DPS isn't the most important thing. Those gaps are too small considering tanks are doing 3000+ dps now. When groups are doing 25000+ dps, an extra ~80-130 from taking a WAR instead of PLD/DRK just doesn't mean much.

[RLofOBFL]

The difference between DPS might be because DRK does the most damage during tank stance

On a dummy I have actually tested this and actually all 3 tanks do near the same damage. I did about 2350 on DRK/WAR and 2400 on PLD at Ilvl 322. I had thought the same too but the lose of BW is a significant dps loss as well as natural tank stance. I just think DRK still needs a small bit of help, but all 3 tanks are doing muuuuuch better than the entirety of HW.

[Fernosaur]

On a dummy I have actually tested this and actually all 3 tanks do near the same damage. I did about 2350 on DRK/WAR and 2400 on PLD at Ilvl 322. I had thought the same too but the lose of BW is a significant dps loss as well as natural tank stance. I just think DRK still needs a small bit of help, but all 3 tanks are doing muuuuuch better than the entirety of HW.

Blood Price doesn't work on a dummy, so DRK's DPS is gonna be lower on Grit than it should be. You can say the same for Shield Swipe, but I don't think it makes enough of a difference.

[FallenWings]

What you say makes sense but technically by this logic SAM and especially MNK would be doing less damage than any two handed class in this scenario and PLD would be more effective than SAM due the the better durability of a straight sword (which contrary to what Katana worshipers think were sharp enough to sever limbs and the like). So overall pointing out the weapon types is and always will be a moot point when considering balance, and as I said PLD uses magic as well.

I know.

But you'd then argue that those are DPS classes and tanks are innately weaker because armor too heavy and shield too heavy.

I can live with a katana or fists being faster thus dealing more damage over time due to speed.

But nooooooooooooo

Gotta make sure that each tank's hardest hitting attack with all the majestic animations and impact feel comparable to a samurai's bread and butter third combo ender.

A friggin dark knight's somersault slam with a giant black death beam explosion on impact is weaker than a Samurai's generic 2 slashes.

THAT FULLY ARMORED DEMON THREW HIS WHOLE BODY INTO THAT ATTACK AND THAT SAMURAI CHUCKED SOME PINK PETALS OUT AND WAVED HIS ARMS FOR A BIT AND SOMEHOW...

It did more.

/deepbreath

Gotta make sure tanks are kept in their rightful place below the DPS. Everything being fantasy is great, but what makes fantasy great is some semblance of realism or reference to realism that makes it more believable. That thing called immersion or whatnot. Otherwise we can just continue with the argument that a dagger's hilt can have some magical property which allows it to combust a man's brain from 1000 lightyears away.

I hate katanas.

[RLofOBFL]

Blood Price doesn't work on a dummy, so DRK's DPS is gonna be lower on Grit than it should be. You can say the same for Shield Swipe, but I don't think it makes enough of a difference.

I did actually forget about those. BP gives you 21 blood minimum and maybe 30 maximum, which over 3 minutes is 100-120. With Delirum it's 125 or 145. So 3 DAs(420 pot) and 2 BS(950 pot but cost GCDs so assumimg they replace HS & SS, 550 pot), so 970 potency total(slightly more if you DA BS) . Whereas PLD gets Shield Swipe @ 150 potency guaranteed at least twice per minute due to Shetron/Holy Spirit, but potentially up to 4 if you rng block, so 900(1050 really bc Bulwark's 85% block rate is neigh impossible to fail) guaranteed with the potential of 1800.

[Freyyy]

I did actually forget about those. BP is a 3 blood per hit and 1/12thish of a DA

BP is a flat 20 blood gain over its duration whether you get hit or not. You only gain 1 extra blood from being hit.