Paladin too overpowered, nerf their damage output!

[SyzzleSpark]

Out of sheer morbid curiosity...

On a scale of 1-to-WAR, how angry are PLD mains that this thread exists and is getting posted on still? I honestly haven't been keeping up.

[VargasVermillion]

snip

Why do people even bother using real world logic for jobs? MNK would technically be the weakest of the lot. Think about it, you would be punching something with blunt trauma until the body shuts down, lot harder than it looks, not to mention the very short reach. If you stick someone with a sword one handed or two handed it would still do heaps of damage but even considering that most of PLDs damage comes from magic as well so you could just assume that makes up for the weakness of using a '1 handed' sword like it makes a significant difference. Also with real world logic, WAR axes or DRK greatswords would be far too inefficient and would be easy for someone using a lighter weapon to counter. eg: real world battle axes are smaller than axes used for chopping wood yet WAR's are far bigger than both.

[MauvaisOeil]

Because there would be no point using any two handers or dual weapons if it gave nothing except the loss of a shield defensive value.

Mmorpg and video games are based on a logic that doesn't defy basic physic rules.

Of course magic comes and game design adapt things. Because games with no logic and magical nonsense put everywhere are underplayed korean games, at most.

The game wouldn t be played with no common sense or logic. Because players would just be "wtf".

[VargasVermillion]

video games are based on a logic that doesn't defy basic physic rules

Are you really sure about that? Most players don't go wtf because most players don't know how real world melee combat works or they simply suspend their disbelief because it's a video game.

[MauvaisOeil]

Hence "basic".

Shield = defense
Two handed = heavy hits
Dual wield = fast hits.

Even ff sum up that way, dragoon having a damage buff, nin and monk a speed buff (damage for monks too, I agree).

But tanks now feel a bit less that scheme since 4.0 with wars having a weaker damage mod on berzerk, more oGCD than they used to have, changing it's pace to a less slugish hard hitter.

[Lyth]

A shield doubles up as a defensive and offensive tool, especially when the shield in question is a massive tower shield. It's a blunt force weapon that can also be used to suppress an assailant to the ground. Remember, the Sultansworn started out as elite bodyguards.

Likewise, Cecil was an offensive powerhouse, regardless of whether he was DRK or PLD. I like that they moved away from "PLD is the defensive tank", because this mindset led to a lot of balance problems. PLD is in a good place right now. The problem is that WAR is overtuned and DRK is undertuned.

[MauvaisOeil]

War still miss some sort of utility, even if you like to think that them being a few % ahead is "overtuned".

Whatever, you spread what you want to spread even if it is only to achieve a false common sense.

I however agree that drk is missing a few cards to be as functionnal and as interesting to play.

And about shields, a tower shield is quite massive to wield and lead to poor agressivity. A round and spiked shield however.... but the pld only has two moves tied to shield attack. What if zealous blade was instead a shield bash ?

[VargasVermillion]

Counter attacking is something that would work well with a shield based playstyle but in that situation PLD would technically have more damage 'potential' than the other two tanks, while actually tanking which like many combat situations in this game taken into real world logic wouldn't be nearly as effective with an axe or a great sword making either argument moot. The actual problem with making tanks noticeably weaker than each other is that they become undesirable if they can't meet a decent damage threshold. Defensive utilities have short term usefulness.

[Lyth]

War still miss some sort of utility, even if you like to think that them being a few % ahead is "overtuned".

People have a very vague sense of what "utility" entails. In HW, DRK was the most mobile tank with Plunge, and PLD had the best knockback negation with Tempered Will. Now, WAR has the best gap closer, with both a longer range and half the recast, and also has a built in and better Tempered Will effect in Inner Release with a minute shorter recast and double the duration. The problem is that we keep taking unique abilities on other jobs which contribute to their overall flavour and bring them over to WAR in a more powerful format. Many of these abilities function like a Swiss Army knife, with multiple effects baked into a single skill. It wasn't enough to copy over Invigorate as Equilibrium, for example. It has half the recast and can be turned into a 1200 potency oGCD self heal with no cost.

It's kind of funny that we keep revisiting the issue of WAR being too flexible and too adaptable at the end of every expansion, but we keep copying over and piling on the utility. An ability like Shake it off would have stayed on as a permanent ability on any other job. Have you seen Sole Survivor? Have you seen Blood Price? Yet if there is a single ability on WAR's list that doesn't have 15 different functions and a built in GPS, Menphina help us all, the sky is falling, WAR has no utility.

If we get through this expansion without WAR getting a Cover clone (because everyone needs one of those now, even if the average WAR wouldn't have the faintest idea of how to use it if it doesn't affect their dps), a Divine Veil clone, and the ability to throw Fell Cleave from range, I would very much be surprised. At least in HW, for all of its balance problems, we were upfront and honest about how powerful WAR was. It would be nice to see balance measures that were implemented to fix this last for more than the first three weeks of an expansion. Even the "superior design" meme, as overbearing as it was, is better than this new "no utility" one.

...

I'm not sure how implement this fairly, but I would like to see more combat abilities on PLD that incorporate your shield. Perhaps they could be tied in to gauge usage or gauge building.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Counter attacking is something that would work well with a shield based playstyle but in that situation PLD would technically have more damage 'potential' than the other two tanks, while actually tanking which like many combat situations in this game taken into real world logic wouldn't be nearly as effective with an axe or a great sword making either argument moot. The actual problem with making tanks noticeably weaker than each other is that they become undesirable if they can't meet a decent damage threshold. Defensive utilities have short term usefulness.

Uhm... Shield Swipe?