Paladin too overpowered, nerf their damage output!

[Fernosaur]

Snippy.

I'll take your word for it. I've delayed getting mine to 70 due to getting all the healers there first, but I was enjoying it quite a bit before I got distracted from it. I did hear that Upheaval can reach some ridiculously high numbers, though, which is pretty good IMO. A pretty potent gauge exhaust in the end.

I cant say that I exactly knew where things sat with tank dps. I was just more going off what other people were claiming and where dps between tanks used to sit.

Right or wrong, I was just going off worse case scenario as far as WAR was concerned. Because if I was wrong my point would still remain intact.

Ah, I apologize if I sounded aggressive or patronizing. I wasn't trying to correct you personally or anything, just putting out the whole misinformation spreading about PLD vs WAR dps.

I feel like the WAR+DRK vs PLD situation is pretty similar to how the healers were doing at the start of Stormblood. WHMs were screaming at the top of their lungs because AST, while SCH was actually much more gutted and in a much worse position for general levels of play. I feel like it's the same with WAR and DRK right now. WARs are the most vocal about the flaws of the job, while DRK is really the one that should be given more attention.

Hopefully the tanks will end up in a similar state to that of the current healers after 4.1.

[AdamZ]

2-4% is not "basically identical", it's a solid advantage

But it is basically identical. Remember that tank damage is becoming a lessor % of overall raid damage, therefore the damage difference between tanks matters less. Tank dps value is further decreased by the fact that fight dps checks are not there. The lower the value of dps is, the higher the difference needs to be.

You could say that the damage would make farms faster etc, but then you are saying you should balance around outgeared content, which seems wrong/odd.

[Ilan]

*DRK Mains in general after SB revamp*

Looks like me after i saw the changes who made me dropping DRK.

[Umbeliel]

sniparoonie

I do want to underline that most of us who have been complaining the most frequently about warrior have been complaining about dark Knight too. It's not an either or argument, but we're probably warrior mains so there's probably more intimate knowledge and involvement there.

I am absolutely happy with Paladin as it is now, and I'd like if all three tanks were as well designed both in terms of feel(identity and gameplay) and capability(bringing something of value that isn't "not a paladin" while also not being awful. Only one of those have been achieved by this point.)

[Fernosaur]

I do want to underline that most of us who have been complaining the most frequently about warrior have been complaining about dark Knight too. It's not an either or argument, but we're probably warrior mains so there's probably more intimate knowledge and involvement there.

I am absolutely happy with Paladin as it is now, and I'd like if all three tanks were as well designed both in terms of feel(identity and gameplay) and capability(bringing something of value that isn't "not a paladin" while also not being awful. Only one of those have been achieved by this point.)

I totally understand the complaints too, don't get me wrong. I was a SCH main throughout HW, and dropped the job in favor of PLD after 4.0 because the vanilla version at release was just that bad. I've picked it up as a frequently played secondary after the changes tho. I also thought WHM was in a terrible spot at the very start of SB, which proved to be a rather uninformed opinion, as seen once the raid tier was actually released.

I mean to say that the situation is similar because there's still WHM players who are dead set on insisting that WHM is dead, even though it was super dominant for early progression for top groups and will continue to be dominant for midcore groups as more clears keep pouring in. Sure, WHM is gonna fall out of fashion with high level farms because you simply can't beat the efficiency of AST+SCH, but WHM had and will always have its spot for raiding, hopefully in future tiers as well.

I think a similar, albeit technically opposite situation is happening with WAR at the moment. It wasn't particularly preferred for early progression in a big part due to the bad rep the job got from the release version, but will slowly gain more traction due to the higher DPS, as slight as this advantage may be at the moment. I think as time passes this gap will start to widen a bit more too.

As for flavor and identity, that's a little bit harder, I suppose. I feel like if you ask the average WAR main what the identity of WAR really is, the image of the old HW WAR will come to mind, which was basically a one-man-army that can do literally everything at the same time. That... would be a terrible idea. That said, what would you say is an identity for WAR that could be conveyed through sensible changes to the current Skill design and iterations? Seeing how it's unlikely that the job will see more dramatic changes in the future, at least. I personally feel like Inner Release is pretty flavorful both in looks and functionality, but a lot of people have numerous qualms with how it centralizes the job's rotation.

Can't sing the same praises for DRK, though. I don't feel like DRK has any ounce of uniqueness or identity native to the way the job's toolkit looks or works. Perhaps the Drain effects should be more prevalescent throughout all of their skills? I don't know.

[Umbeliel]

snip snop the witch is dead

To the point of "what would I like"- I've said it in other threads too, but ultimately I don't actually care. Kind of.

My issue is largely that I want -some kind of identity- that isn't "2~3% dps over pld" and absolutely nothing else. What do you take a Warrior for? LB gauge and dubiously noticable dps difference is not a good enough answer. What does a Warrior do that other tanks don't? What do they provide to the party? Right now, the answer is nothing.

How we get it doesn't matter to me. A set and forget tank b/c high self sustain? Sure. Significantly higher dps(ala samurai/blm vs other dps)? I don't actually want that, but if it's clear and an absolute part of what a Warrior is supposed to be by design, sure. Tank bard w/party buffs? Sure idc. What's important is that something is there.

[Thela]

To the point of "what would I like"- I've said it in other threads too, but ultimately I don't actually care. Kind of.

My issue is largely that I want -some kind of identity- that isn't "2~3% dps over pld" and absolutely nothing else. What do you take a Warrior for? LB gauge and dubiously noticable dps difference is not a good enough answer. What does a Warrior do that other tanks don't? What do they provide to the party? Right now, the answer is nothing.

How we get it doesn't matter to me. A set and forget tank b/c high self sustain? Sure. Significantly higher dps(ala samurai/blm vs other dps)? I don't actually want that, but if it's clear and an absolute part of what a Warrior is supposed to be by design, sure. Tank bard w/party buffs? Sure idc. What's important is that something is there.

Well one thing a war can do on O4S that a PLD cannot is take all 3 delta attacks because of the short cooldown on holmgang vs the 7 minutes on HG. Sure a DRK can do this as well if they use the first living dead a little prematurely so it will line up with the 2nd delta attack.

But yeah i don't know really for identity, they don't bring any particular group utility as such, but they do their job well enough and bring slightly higher dps than a pld. On top of this they bring arguably the best set of defensive cd's of all tanks. I'm not really sure they need anything else? DRK on the other hand, well they need something for sure.

[cgbspender]

Yeah, nerf ! Spamming the same skill over and over isn't right. But I hadn't realized clemency does damage though.

#deleteclemencyholic.

[VargasVermillion]

Lets be honest, it makes no sense that a class who wears a shield and a toothpick deals more damage than classes with a big ass axe or a huge sword.
But i wouldn't say nerf PLD i would say buff WAR and DRK.

So why can a class that uses an even smaller sword or fist weapons do around double the amount than any of those roles?

[TouchandFeel]

So why can a class that uses an even smaller sword or fist weapons do around double the amount than any of those roles?

It's not the size of the blade, it's how nice you slice.

Not actually weighing in here, just really wanted to make a size pun.