Paladin too overpowered, nerf their damage output!

[VenKitsune]

Holy balls are you serious about this? DRK is the most braindead job to play right now. Also why 'stance dancing'? Building up an aggro lead and then disabling the tank stance isn't really dancing imo.
You're right about the defensive part, even tho the situation isn't as dire because TBN is really valuable.

PLD rotation is literally the same as HW + get full mana than Requiescat + HS spam. PLD is and always shall be the "easiest" tank to play.
Meanwhile DRK actually has a proper gauge to manage and you're punished more for screw ups than a PLD is. I will agree that some parts of the job are easier than in HW but I really, really would not agree that DRK is "braindead" because honestly it has a higher skill ceiling than in HW. In HW it was litterally use all your oGCD attacks at the right time and use Delirium if you didn't have enough MP for DA SA, atleast now its a bit more involved.

Stance dancing because if a mistake is made and the other tank dies for example or if you need to turn on grit for an add, its extremely punishing unless you're prepared for it as Grit is on the GCD and costs a load of MP if you're not prepared for it.

[Accelerating]

snip

What you are describing doesn't really make much sense to me. The hardest part about DRK is probably optimizing Bloodspiller usage in buff windows, the rest is pretty trivial. Also, how can DRK scew up their gauge? Overcapping is the worst thing that can happen - I wouldn't call that proper gauage management.
Also keeping some spare mana for Grit or TBN (or DM+DA for whatever reason) isn't really rocket science.

[Aniond]

Funny coming from someone who shows a tonberry as their sig. Point being it's the skill not the tool.

[Reynhart]

If anything I'd say defiance is very powerful in progression

I'm only talking about raw eHP.

[Chrono_Rising]

WAR does not have a single unique CD that does not involve either taking damage or dishing out damage excluding two (something the other tanks share). They are on a low CD because everything about WAR is based on taking damage and dishing it out unlike PLD and DRK which have skills that give them sustain or reduction without damage being a factor. The 100% parry is really good...but it also requires you to be taking damage to even work.

This doesn't really make sense to me, if we are talking about mitigation they all are going to revolve around taking damage. As you've stated Warrior has raw intuition which works as a mitigation (different from the other two) and warrior has other eHP buffs like thrill of battle (which is a nice pinch heal as well). Parry only works against physical attacks, the analog on dark is dark mind which only works on magical attacks, and paladin has bulwark which works on everything but is RNG and on a rediculous timer. Self sustain wise you have equilibrium, though it does come with tank stance penalty, pld has clemecy (spammable but an even larger dps loss), and dark knight has soul eater (grit locked because reasons) and abyssal if there are enough adds to justify the huge mp cost.

It also has by far, the worst tank stance in the entire game, one that is not affected by effects from abilities (like SCH's fairy healing doesn't give the 20% extra healing the tooltip says it does).

This is partially true, the warrior healing bonus is not affected by things like tetra or essential or any other instant cast ability outside of regens. However, the sch fairy healing is buffed by warrior tank stance. I did some testing last night, my dark and paladin get healed for approximately 3100 per embrace, switching to warrior and the embraces went to approximately 3700, which is a 20% bonus. Similar results obtained with whispering dawn, but not with Fey Union.

The only time it ever gives an equivalent amount of damage reduction is when WAR is at full health with defiance on, at any other point it's worse then PLD/DRK's stance. For instance lets assume all three tanks have 20k health. if an attack that does exactly 20k hits DRK/PLD with their stance on, they will survive it. If it hits WAR with their tank stance on they will die.

Is this to say that the warrior have 20k hp in tank stance, or the warrior is at 20k before tank stance and then switches into tank stance to get 25k, but remains at 20k because they don't get healed for the switch? If its the latter (and I think it is) then either 1 of 2 things failed:
(1) the warrior entered tank stance too late to be healed by the healer and did not have equilibrium up to heal themselves (in this case the pld and dark may die as well since the server tick may not see the mitigation until after the attack if it was put up this late)
(2) the healer does not understand how warrior tank stance works (nothing you can do about that, it is alarming considering how long warrior has been around. More frightening I've met warrior's who didn't understand they did not have mitigation on their tank stance).

The real advantage of warrior's tank stance is the fact that they can very fluidly switch stances at no cost to themselves other than the damage penalty from tank stance. Warrior's do have the highest damage penalty in this respect, but when you consider how little you need to be in tank stance in most single target fights the lost gcd from dark knight or paladin activating tank stance for such a short period of time likely balances warrior's higher penalty (I wonder if anyone has mathed this one out).

This is also ignoring the fact that in most of savage, even undergeared tanks are able to leave tank stance for 99% of the fight (I have not cleared v4s but we are progressing and I see nothing to indicate I must be in tank stance yet). When you take that into account the short cooldowns of warrior put them into a mitigation tier of their own in comparison to dark knight and paladin.

[Conna]

WAR reigned for 2.0 and 3.0, let PLD have the stage for a change.

if you were there for 2.0 you'd realize war sucked at 2.0, because it only had self healing (that sucked) and no real defensives.

[DWolfwood]

I just wanna chime in and say I don't think PLD really needs a nerf in terms of DPS just yet. DRK is under-tuned and needs to be fixed asap. PLD doesn't need much adjusting in my opinion and could be more easily seen where it should stand once DRK is brought up to speed.

Issues with DRK:
1. Lowest DPS with nowhere the utility of PLD.
2. Living Dead is under-tuned.
3. Shadow Wall is under-tuned.
4. Poor passive mitigation and over-reliance on TBN.
5. Blood Price is completely forgettable.
6. Sole Survivor is too weak for being DRK's only source of significant self-healing.
7. Loses access to passive self-healing completely when it tanks without tank stance which is the meta.
8. Plunge is the worst gap-closer in the game.
9. Carve and Spit is objectively bad without Dark Arts on single target.
10. TBN is agreed upon from both NA and JP sides that it should last a little longer to at least perform as it is intended due to server lag.
11. Dark Passenger's Dark Arts effect is really bad.
12. Dark Passenger is nearly forgettable itself.

Although I list DPS first, and it's the easiest to point out in DRK being in a bad position, I think it's one of the least of DRK's problems right now. I would prefer seeing everything else fixed first and then seeing where DRK's DPS/utility stands.

About TBN:
TBN is compared to Sheltron and Inner Beast often, but neither PLD nor WAR rely on those while tanking to ease incoming fluff damage. WAR gets a robust toolkit with short timers, including Raw Intuition which is a great passive mitigation ability on magical fights and an entire extra CD on physical. PLD gets a permanent chance to block with shield for -24% and Bulwark which is amazing for mitigating passive damage. TBN simply tries to do too much and DRK's kit suffers because of it. A TBN nerf would not be a bad idea to make way for the other changes. As it is, the 15s timer is overkill.

About Dark Arts Skills:
I think a lot of DRK's skills with Dark Arts effects need to be adjusted to better compensate for the fact that DRK has no major burst damage. Carve and Spit for example should be a tiny bit stronger when not used with Dark Arts that way during a raid-wide burst window, it becomes better to use Dark Arts on and gives DRK a little extra burst. Dark Passenger should be similar to Flash and deal no damage to increase enmity and give blindness while having a drastically reduced cost. The Dark Arts effect should give it a potency and MP cost that balances at being slightly better than Abyssal Drain due to being on a 30s recast.

About Living Dead:
Living Dead should at the least have its CD timer reduced to the same as Holmgang's since the trade offs between the two are already on par without having different timers, but I would honestly rather see this skill reworked entirely. I think Living Dead might've been a better new ultimate ability for WHM since that job is best equipped to deal with it and they could choose who to use it on.

About Plunge:
No other gap-closer has as short a distance as Plunge, which has become noticeable in new content with being so far from bosses. Furthermore, the animation lock is completely unnecessary. Just make it like Onslaught and be done with it.

About Sole Survivor and Shadow Wall:
Sole Survivor is a good opportunity to give DRK some utility. I think it should probably reduce, if not nullify, the chance for the target to deal Critical Damage. Shadow Wall needs either a shorter CD, increased mitigation, or an added extra effect and possibly a combination of the three.


Issues with WAR:
1. Lacking utility. / Lacking the DPS to make up for lack of utility.
2. Shake it Off is forgettable.
3. Unchained is worthless outside of large AoE dungeon pulls.

WAR is questionable if it will need major changes after Shake it Off. Until we see what this new skill brings, it's hard to say just how much WAR will need. I think giving it Thrill of War might remedy its situation entirely.


Issues with PLD:
1. Total Eclipse should have enmity.
2. Hallowed Ground should probably have a lower CD.

I say "probably" to Hallowed because the only thing good about PLD's extremely long and powerful CDs is that the dev team balances tank busters around them, and if they reduce the timer, it will all of a sudden make CDs across the board a bit weaker in the balance of things. For this reason, I don't even list adjusting Sentinel to be a shorter CD with lower mitigation.

My aim and wish is to one day see all three tanks on equal ground with unique flavors. This nonsense about letting one tank have the spotlight is dumb and will come to back around to bite when it's time to be on bottom. DRK has never even been on top and no tank should be objectively on the bottom.

[Aomine1992]

Or just buff the other two classes to PLD's damage.

Thank you lol ppl are always like nerf please um that won't fix the problem...WAR will still be trash with like one defensive cd, DRK will still be trash will like one actual CD that eats alot of mana for 3 secs lol and mana is crap when trying to optimize your rotation

I just wish they would do something with dark arts for the love of GOD lol

[Ekimmak]

Warrior's problem isn't lack of damage, it's how penalised they are for not getting their Inner Release window just right.

And while I'm sure people will tell me how facerolling easy it is to do it, that's assuming you're hitting a dummy. It doesn't work out as well when dealing with a boss that loves to force you away from it, like almost the entire Catastrophe fight.

[Umbeliel]

Why is this thread still alive & on top prior to me posting in it