An In Depth look at Dark Knight - Lvl 70 Raiding Guide

[Emiin]

Hey all! I think I've posted here, maybe once. Unsure, I usually don't head to the forums that often. But I've just finished compiling the information myself and my Dark Knight friends from The Balance Discord server, and made a Guide that hopefully all will be able to read and learn from. Enjoy!

Link to the Google Doc of the Guide

[DWolfwood]

Living Dead is, in effect, 10-20 seconds of invulnerability when used properly.

Makes me cringe so hard when people say this, let alone think it. Living Dead is 0-9.something seconds of invulnerability. You will never get a full 10 seconds, unless you literally die at the end. Furthermore, just because you have to die before it kicks in doesn't make you invulnerable, as is completely evident if it doesn't actually kick in.

A planned use of an ability like this should see a healer treating you no differently whether it's Living Dead, Holmgang, or Hallowed Ground in that time-frame before the countdown kicks in. Basically, WAR and PLD also get the same buffer window of not needing healing before their ultimate when used in the manner this guide is suggesting.

The math on TBN is also cringy and completely ignores the Bloodgauge gain on SE.

[Emiin]

The math on TBN is also cringy and completely ignores the Bloodgauge gain on SE.

The math for adjusting for blood gain related to the SE replaced would be as convoluted as the math within the TBN post itself. For a general understanding of when TBN is a gain vs. loss it is not required, thought of, or cared about.

[Aletin]

Makes me cringe so hard when people say this, let alone think it. Living Dead is 0-9.something seconds of invulnerability. You will never get a full 10 seconds, unless you literally die at the end. Furthermore, just because you have to die before it kicks in doesn't make you invulnerable, as is completely evident if it doesn't actually kick in.

It would be more accurate to say Living Dead is 0-9s of Invulnerability and 10-19s of no healer attention. Which is better than hallowed by 0-9s and holmgang by 4-13s.

[Emiin]

Hence the terminology of "In Effect." It isn't a literal 20s, but it's close enough that an even number is easier to understand, and more universal. Accuracy wasn't what I was going for as much as general understanding.

[Chrono_Rising]

I have a question about the BiS cited in the guide. Do the calculations considered include higher skill speed builds (GCD 2.38) for an extra gcd hit in blood weapon windows and very high skill speed builds (GCD 2.32) for extra hits in both blood weapon windows and delirium windows?

[Emiin]

I have a question about the BiS cited in the guide. Do the calculations considered include higher skill speed builds (GCD 2.38) for an extra gcd hit in blood weapon windows and very high skill speed builds (GCD 2.32) for extra hits in both blood weapon windows and delirium windows?

Too many better substats are lost to make a build that fast viable. This was true in Heavensward, and it remains true now.

[DWolfwood]

It would be more accurate to say Living Dead is 0-9s of Invulnerability and 10-19s of no healer attention. Which is better than hallowed by 0-9s and holmgang by 4-13s.

It gives the same amount of "no healer attention" as Hallowed Ground though in actual practice, and more importantly, it's nearly the same amount of "no healer attention" as Holmgang. I play all three tanks and communicate well enough to see it in action. It's pretty rare that you'll even get the full 10s ever of Walking Dead; it has the same problem as Living Dead in that, if you actually see the full 10s, it won't kick in.

That beside the case, healers stop ignoring you when you plan and communicate an invuln no matter which job you're on, and that's the big point I'm driving. The Walking Dead buff is really only there as a crutch for people who poorly time it and to justify the 5m CD.

Accuracy wasn't what I was going for as much as general understanding....

The math for adjusting for blood gain related to the SE replaced would be as convoluted as the math within the TBN post itself. For a general understanding of when TBN is a gain vs. loss it is not required, thought of, or cared about.

The problem is you list a potency gain of 10, which is doubly false. TBN is a potency loss for the DRK, which you could easily see if you did the math. Based on your response though, I imagine you either didn't know how or forgot. If you were aiming for a "general" guide, you should have just said the DPS gain or loss was negligible for the DRK outside of raid buff windows but provided enough raid utility to warrant it.

In a day and age where an overwhelming amount of tanks are concerned with parses considering how easy these fights are, a lot care whether it is a personal DPS loss or gain, even if "negligible."

[Emiin]

It gives the same amount of "no healer attention" as Hallowed Ground though in actual practice, and more importantly, it's nearly the same amount of "no healer attention" as Holmgang. I play all three tanks and communicate well enough to see it in action. It's pretty rare that you'll even get the full 10s ever of Walking Dead; it has the same problem as Living Dead in that, if you actually see the full 10s, it won't kick in.

At this point you're just being nit-picky, in a general field of information that doesn't require it. We all know it won't last the entire duration of 20seconds, but it's a consideration that can be taken into effect. Walking Dead buff is on purpose, and intentionally used properly, it can effectively lead to an additional near 10 seconds of healers ignoring you.

The problem is you list a potency gain of 10, which is doubly false. TBN is a potency loss for the DRK, which you could easily see if you did the math. Based on your response though, I imagine you either didn't know how or forgot. If you were aiming for a "general" guide, you should have just said the DPS gain or loss was negligible for the DRK outside of raid buff windows but provided enough raid utility to warrant it.

I listed an -average- potency gain of 10. As stated in the math this will not always be the case. If you read the math, you'd understand that. Every 3 TBN uses it will even out to 10 potency gained, and the cycle resets. Since you didn't read the math, I'll clarify it really quick - (110-40-60) = 10. As I stated within the guide, if you want to optimize fully, you have to map your uses, and your GCDs. I'll quote my guide where I stated this, since you didn't read it.

Throughout a fight, you’ll only know which GCDs you have replaced depending on which GCD you end a fight/phase with. Note, that this math does not equate to Bloodspillers gained naturally, as the (-140) modifier will not be present, and naturals are always a gain when used.
Overall, TBN guaranteed Bloodspillers averages out to a 10 potency gain when used regularly throughout your rotation. At some points it will be a loss, some it will be a gain.

I also talked about its utility in other sections. But again, you didn't read it, apparently.

[Chrono_Rising]

I listed an -average- potency gain of 10. As stated in the math this will not always be the case. If you read the math, you'd understand that. Every 3 TBN uses it will even out to 10 potency gained, and the cycle resets. Since you didn't read the math, I'll clarify it really quick - (110-40-60) = 10. As I stated within the guide, if you want to optimize fully, you have to map your uses, and your GCDs. I'll quote my guide where I stated this, since you didn't read it.

If I may, I will say that this is a great guide which contains most of the pertinent information to dark knight. I think most people will agree that dark knight is not in the best place in terms of damage or utility, and the concern with tbn is that citing it as a potential gain may lead to confusion that one of the core issues with dark knight isn't an issue at all. The further concern is this would make us look like we are not unified in our complaints and won't be taken seriously by SE.

Though the math might not have a place in your guide (because I agree it is more complicated to get into pushing out a naturally occurring bloodspiller, though every 16 uses this will happen), nodding to the maths existance and saying it can be shown that it is a loss when taking into account blood gains isn't the worst idea.

Mapping out the fight is important, but sometimes fights end a GCD ahead of where you expect (suppose Sam crits multiple 50K hits), and TBN just further complicates this type of optimization since if you would have ended in the optimal place but the fight ended a GCD before (because of RNG) then the planned optimal uses of TBN becomes not optimal.