It is time to get a 3rd free Retainer

[Krotoan]

So there'd be more servers and bandwidth to accommodate for something they should already have enough servers and bandwidth for anyway....right....

I'd appreciate more actual discussion and less flippant dismissal. I'm not saying it would magically appear. people would pay money, that money could be used to pay for those things as demand obviously increased.
Whether or not they should already have these things is a matter of opinion. In a perfect world a game provider would be able to potentially handle their servers being used at max capacity constantly forever. This is not how they are run. As demand increases, adjustments are made. Nobody would lock up the capital necessary to max out all possible eventualities, you'd make your investors pull out instantly. You run it as cheaply as you can at a reasonable level of service, maximizing profits and minimizing customer disappointment.

[Kazrah]

I'd appreciate more actual discussion and less flippant dismissal.

Except you tried to point out that SE doesn't have something that it should already have.

I'm not saying it would magically appear. people would pay money, that money could be used to pay for those things as demand obviously increased.

Hired retainers are what, $2 a month or so? That's not going to put a bump into any real budget compared to anything else available from their cash shop.

Whether or not they should already have these things is a matter of opinion.

Here's a thought then: why would they try to sell something if their servers couldn't handle the load for it? Sure, you could argue that the money would go toward ensuring the server load with the increased capacity or something like that, but again, there's way more money they're getting from other sources that people actually agree is worth money.

In a perfect world a game provider would be able to potentially handle their servers being used at max capacity constantly forever. This is not how they are run.

Why do you keep talking about the servers as if they're made of coconuts? Yes, they're not always run at max capacity, but making a third retainer free instead of having to pay for it would use server space that should already be available wouldn't be running them at max capacity, and the servers would probably be just as stable as they are now.

As demand increases, adjustments are made.

Demand has increased, and although some adjustments have been made such as increased inventory and armory space, it's still nowhere near enough because of more items being put into the game. Increasing inventory and armory space would put more strain on servers than simply making the third retainer free since again, that would use resources that SE should already have unless you've been paying something you actually don't have.

Nobody would lock up the capital necessary to max out all possible eventualities, you'd make your investors pull out instantly. You run it as cheaply as you can at a reasonable level of service, maximizing profits and minimizing customer disappointment.

What do you think would lose more money a month: people not paying a small, yet pointless monthly fee for one more retainer, or people not paying for a game subscription because of how fed up they are with not only how little inventory space is available, but that this is the only MMORPG on the market where you have to use real-life currency to rent--not pay, rent--additional storage space on top of having to pay for a subscription?

[Krotoan]

Except you tried to point out that SE doesn't have something that it should already have.

I conceded you have a point and asked for civil discussion. Dismissal of someone offhand doesn't make for very convincing back and forth. Why do you insist on being snippy about it? Just because you were right about one thing doesn't mean I'm wrong about everything and have no information to share that's useful or pertinent.

Hired retainers are what, $2 a month or so? That's not going to put a bump into any real budget compared to anything else available from their cash shop.

2 dollars a month times however many thousands of subscribers is a substantial amount of money. cash shops are one time payments, how many people buy a mount every month? you'd run out of things to buy pretty quickly. Recurring monthly payments are what keeps the servers and people who support the active game going. Cellphone companies realized that a while ago when they decided to subsidize the costs of the phones they were selling. The phones weren't actually free, the companies realized they could make far more money stretched out over 2 years than the phone was worth.

Here's a thought then: why would they try to sell something if their servers couldn't handle the load for it? Sure, you could argue that the money would go toward ensuring the server load with the increased capacity or something like that, but again, there's way more money they're getting from other sources that people actually agree is worth money.

Once again, once the money is coming in they can support the extra load. You wouldn't stock your own store with more than you thought you could sell that month. That would be frozen assets that may end up wasted money. Likewise they will not up their capacity until it's absolutely needed. I'm not sure what sources you think all this other money is coming from. Sure there's a cash shop but I don't think it makes half as much money as constant subscriptions potentially can.

Why do you keep talking about the servers as if they're made of coconuts? Yes, they're not always run at max capacity, but making a third retainer free instead of having to pay for it would use server space that should already be available wouldn't be running them at max capacity, and the servers would probably be just as stable as they are now.

Because I've run servers and administrate a statewide network. That and I know that dumping money into them first without gauging need is a poor investment even on a small scale. In addition to our space needed for items and retainer information they get DDOS attacks, network issues happen and have to be dealt with. I don't think you're considering that giving every single active account another retainer is quite a load increase. I'm NOT arguing AGAINST it, honestly I would LOVE another free retainer. I'm trying to put some perspective out there.

Demand has increased, and although some adjustments have been made such as increased inventory and armory space, it's still nowhere near enough because of more items being put into the game. Increasing inventory and armory space would put more strain on servers than simply making the third retainer free since again, that would use resources that SE should already have unless you've been paying something you actually don't have.

you are putting supply ahead of demand again. You don't surplus supply if you don't have to. A gradual uptick in people purchasing extra retainers (and it would be gradual, it would be highly unlikely everyone or even the majority of the playerbase would buy new retainers all at once.) would show SE they need to upgrade and the money would be there to justify it to investors and the devs.

What do you think would lose more money a month: people not paying a small, yet pointless monthly fee for one more retainer, or people not paying for a game subscription because of how fed up they are with not only how little inventory space is available, but that this is the only MMORPG on the market where you have to use real-life currency to rent--not pay, rent--additional storage space on top of having to pay for a subscription?

Yes, vote with your wallet PLEASE. if you feel this game isn't worth it go ahead and quit. It WILL show them that something has to be done. I don't know why you think I'm blindly supporting a company. Loyalty to a company is stupid. Even if I worked for them I'd have this viewpoint. Realize though that any time you are paying a sub to ANY game, you are essentially "renting" your storage space, it's just part of the sub.

[Kazrah]

I conceded you have a point and asked for civil discussion. Dismissal of someone offhand doesn't make for very convincing back and forth. Why do you insist on being snippy about it? Just because you were right about one thing doesn't mean I'm wrong about everything and have no information to share that's useful or pertinent.

Because at least in this case, it honestly feels like you kinda don't have any useful information here. They have the space, we know the space is there, and not only is the demand for more space present, but even devs have claimed that more space is needed because of more items being put into the game just with the launch of 4.0 than players have additional storage space for.

2 dollars a month times however many thousands of subscribers is a substantial amount of money. cash shops are one time payments, how many people buy a mount every month? you'd run out of things to buy pretty quickly. Recurring monthly payments are what keeps the servers and people who support the active game going. Cellphone companies realized that a while ago when they decided to subsidize the costs of the phones they were selling. The phones weren't actually free, the companies realized they could make far more money stretched out over 2 years than the phone was worth.

Thousands? More like dozens. Either way, still nowhere near enough income to match people paying for one-time items, especially when 1) you don't know how many people are buying items for other people, 2) there are consumable items purchased from the cash shop that may be brought more than once by some customers, and 3) you're not factoring in the costs of server transfers, which happen every single and give WAY more money every month than they get from saps paying for extra retainers.

Once again, once the money is coming in they can support the extra load. You wouldn't stock your own store with more than you thought you could sell that month. That would be frozen assets that may end up wasted money. Likewise they will not up their capacity until it's absolutely needed. I'm not sure what sources you think all this other money is coming from. Sure there's a cash shop but I don't think it makes half as much money as constant subscriptions potentially can.

Frozen assets aren't as damaging as customers leaving because you can't keep up stock. Plus we know that prior to the release of Heavensward (two years ago now), the income from the cash shop was used to get the EU datacenter, so we are plenty aware of what money can be gained from that cash shop.

Because I've run servers and administrate a statewide network. That and I know that dumping money into them first without gauging need is a poor investment even on a small scale. In addition to our space needed for items and retainer information they get DDOS attacks, network issues happen and have to be dealt with. I don't think you're considering that giving every single active account another retainer is quite a load increase. I'm NOT arguing AGAINST it, honestly I would LOVE another free retainer. I'm trying to put some perspective out there.

I've dealt with networks too and I understand what you're trying to explain, but I don't think you're considering that the load space is already there AND they have already gauged the need for more inventory space. It's also why I would rather see the third retainer as free than increasing armory and inventory space even further, which would put WAY more stress on the servers. This is not adding an extra retainer (the maximum retainer limit is fine right where it is). This is simply making the third retainer cost nothing. Barely any profit lost, and it could most likely be made up with the number of people who'd come back after quitting because of this issue and even surpassed by players having more money to spend on more cash shop items for example.

you are putting supply ahead of demand again. You don't surplus supply if you don't have to. A gradual uptick in people purchasing extra retainers (and it would be gradual, it would be highly unlikely everyone or even the majority of the playerbase would buy new retainers all at once.) would show SE they need to upgrade and the money would be there to justify it to investors and the devs.

No, I'm putting decency ahead of supply and demand. We shouldn't have to be kicking and screaming about it on the forums when devs are fully aware that this is a problem.

Yes, vote with your wallet PLEASE. if you feel this game isn't worth it go ahead and quit. It WILL show them that something has to be done.

Or we can keep talking about it on these forums, which SURPRISE, people at Square-Enix actually read! The more it's brought up here, the more likely devs might take notice of it.

I don't know why you think I'm blindly supporting a company.

Re-read your posts while pretending like you didn't write them.

Realize though that any time you are paying a sub to ANY game, you are essentially "renting" your storage space, it's just part of the sub.

Yes, a basic level of storage, and no other game do you have to constantly pay more real-life money to have adequate storage space. Actually in most major MMORPGs, you don't have to pay real-life money for adequate storage space at all. Maybe a couple of them offering one-time fees for extra permanent storage space, but you don't have to increase your subscription fee just to have a necessary amount of storage space.

[Krotoan]

Because at least in this case, it honestly feels like you kinda don't have any useful information here. They have the space, we know the space is there, and not only is the demand for more space present, but even devs have claimed that more space is needed because of more items being put into the game just with the launch of 4.0 than players have additional storage space for.

how do you know the space is there? because the option to HAVE more retainers is there? It' doesn't necessarily follow and that's what I'm trying to say. Devs also gave us more storage and armory space which was , in their eyes, enough to deal with the new gear/items.

Thousands? More like dozens. Either way, still nowhere near enough income to match people paying for one-time items, especially when 1) you don't know how many people are buying items for other people, 2) there are consumable items purchased from the cash shop that may be brought more than once by some customers, and 3) you're not factoring in the costs of server transfers, which happen every single and give WAY more money every month than they get from saps paying for extra retainers.

if you think there are only dozens of people playing this game, or are even just going to claim that. I'm done trying to talk to you. Even if you're just using hyperbole, that's just being as contrary as possible for it's own sake. Yes , there are consumables and server transfers. Transfers are being given away for free at the moment for many people. I still think you're underestimating the value of consistent and potential subscriber and recurring payments VS one time item/boost money.

Frozen assets aren't as damaging as customers leaving because you can't keep up stock. Plus we know that prior to the release of Heavensward (two years ago now), the income from the cash shop was used to get the EU datacenter, so we are plenty aware of what money can be gained from that cash shop.

I wasn't aware that the data centers were purchased solely on money made from cash shop purchases. If this is true then there is far more money than I'd foresee coming out of that (point conceded if that's a real number). Frozen assets can kill or make a business if managed correctly by themselves, and as I've mentioned it's very likely once the funded demand is there, the space and bandwidth would be purchased.

I've dealt with networks too and I understand what you're trying to explain, but I don't think you're considering that the load space is already there AND they have already gauged the need for more inventory space. It's also why I would rather see the third retainer as free than increasing armory and inventory space even further, which would put WAY more stress on the servers. This is not adding an extra retainer (the maximum retainer limit is fine right where it is). This is simply making the third retainer cost nothing. Barely any profit lost, and it could most likely be made up with the number of people who'd come back after quitting because of this issue and even surpassed by players having more money to spend on more cash shop items for example.

How do we know the loadspace is already there? Are you basing this off the fact the retainer spaces are available for purchase still? They have constantly said they are currently still guaging the need for space VS capacity and haven't seen enough of a need to make it a priority. I never mentioned making another retainer space past the 6. I don't know where this more money is coming from either. People who stopped paying for a retainer since it's free will be unlikely to go ahead and burn that money on one time purchases that they weren't going to make anyway (speaking as someone who already pays for 2, I would buy things in the cash shop anyway free retainer or not and having another free retainer would probably just make me dial down my sub).

No, I'm putting decency ahead of supply and demand. We shouldn't have to be kicking and screaming about it on the forums when devs are fully aware that this is a problem.

They aren't though.They at least don't think it's a major one. I'm also sorry to say you are a vocal minority. Most of the playerbase does not post here. Heck I don't really unless I'm bored at work and need something to do. And I'd also suggest that posting civilly vs "kicking and screaming" (though to be honest you personally have only been short with me) will make it more likely for someone from the company to read it and relay it.

Or we can keep talking about it on these forums, which SURPRISE, people at Square-Enix actually read! The more it's brought up here, the more likely devs might take notice of it.

Conceded, it helps. Not as much weight as suddenly missing money from their bottom line, but it is an avenue of contact. But once again, acting like I am too dumb to realize this is making me want to just ignore you bit by bit. I'm not a child, nor stupid and would appreciate a mutual level of respect.

Re-read your posts while pretending like you didn't write them.



Yes, a basic level of storage, and no other game do you have to constantly pay more real-life money to have adequate storage space. Actually in most major MMORPGs, you don't have to pay real-life money for adequate storage space at all. Maybe a couple of them offering one-time fees for extra permanent storage space, but you don't have to increase your subscription fee just to have a necessary amount of storage space.

Rereading right now, but so far all I've seen is presenting information that might not have been considered while adding my own perspective to a discussion. I understand other MMO's do different things. I understand you'd like this one to do it similarly. They are under no moral or business reason to do so at the moment. Morals very rarely influence a large company, most of the time you'll see legality disguised as morals changing companies behaviors. Give them a legal or business reason to change their practices and they will change, this is what I suggest.
In the end I support the OP's original request, but I don't think the people on this forums are appealing to the right things to get it changed. You aren't going to make SE feel guilty or sorry, but you can show them it's in their best interest to make the change you desire in a reasonable and measured manner. Call me a white knight fanboy if you like, but I am only trying to help and inform.

[Snow_Princess]

Yes, vote with your wallet PLEASE. if you feel this game isn't worth it go ahead and quit. It WILL show them that something has to be done. I don't know why you think I'm blindly supporting a company. Loyalty to a company is stupid. Even if I worked for them I'd have this viewpoint. Realize though that any time you are paying a sub to ANY game, you are essentially "renting" your storage space, it's just part of the sub.

Then the monthly sub is 27.99 for this game, it costs too much money.

Its always nice to see how people want everything for free just because they pay 13 bucks a month and think they own all rights now. SE is still a company and not the holy samaritan.

Yes another free retainer would be nice but its not really needed.

Yes it is NEEDED!!! people that care to glam and craft are running out of room with 8 retainers. The game is approaching literally unplayable because of no room, and it is impacting me a lot of what i can do.

It's nice to see people still like to misrepresent positions and arguments and act as though we, the customer, should roll over and be happy with whatever SE deigns to give us.

Yes