MCH buffs!

[RLofOBFL]

Dismantle stacks with Reprisal. In savage, Dismantle has been very helpful and this buff has made it even more so.

Troubadour lasts longer but is much less flexible on a 3 min CD so MCH actually wins in that department.

[Xygoz]

Even So you cant argue that mch is on the same level of support as a bard....

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

No, but while the BRD/MCH Support list is pretty weighted on BRD's side, a lot of it is situational and not guaranteed. MCH support - what little there is - just works.

People have been touting the "support" aspects of both jobs looking at the list for a long time now, but even BRDs are noting that MCH support - again what little there is - shouldn't be dismissed.

[Xygoz]

and dismantle isn't situational? its one cooldown... don't over sell this skill I mean tanks get the same skills as a cross role....
People keep "touting" support because that is the spot it is fighting for in a raid. bards are noting the support of mch? where is it I don't see the support they have, where is our version of battle voice? or Nature's Minne just as you said you cant Dismiss these abilities.

As I said before I am fine with bard only having these skills, but MCH needs to have the dps to make up for the lack of these skils.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I believe it was mentioned that Reprisal does stack with Dismantle, but let's not try to weigh an optional Role ability with something a job natively has. Not every tank might bring Reprisal, and trying to claim that because they can offer it, hardly invalidates a MCH's Dismantle. Trick Attack isn't invalidated by requiring a Ninjutsu primer when MCH can just press a button for a similar effect, right?

Largely, no one wants MCH to just become "BRD with a gun", and while I agree we either need more support or more DPS, SE seems to have chosen DPS. We're now catching up to where we need to be, so now the counterargument becomes "well they don't bring as much support, so. . ." Like, what DO people want? If we had just as much support if not more, people would bash on having lower damage, or might nitpick how necessary the support is. If we got both, then it's "MCH is broken again!"

[Xygoz]

Why cant we compare reprisal to dismantle? they are the same and ANY tank can take it, if dismantle was unique to MCH it would be different but the fact that any tank can get the same skill with no real lose is a big deal.The Fact that it is a JOB skill and not an role action means it should be better, and yet it is on the same level. I didn't say it invalidates dismantle but it lowers the value of MCH. "catching up" is the key here as I said couple posts ago Bard can still out dps a mch with it rng its hard to balance around this, and if we really want to get into it mch is much more punishing if you mess up or don't have a nice ping.

[RLofOBFL]

Dismantle/Reprisal are often up for heavy raid wide AOE. Take Sus ex's Ukehi, Lakshimi ex's Strotom, O1s's Roar or Blaze, O2s's Gravity waves, and O3s's Dimensional waves, O4s's Almagest. Dismantle can help mitigate nearly every one with a 1 min Dismantle CD. And do I have to repeat myself, it STACKS with reprisal for 20% damage reduction. In fights like that where damage is absolutely insane, someone may not be topped off, and it saves raids from wipes. I have seen it many times.

I am not arguing that MCH support is better but Dismantle is most definitely better than Troubadour. The only time I think Troubadour can win is in long continuous damage phases. O4s soft enrage for example is actually the only time I can think of. A8s soft enrage too I guess. Otherwise Dismantle is extremely versatile and can mitigate 3 heavy hit/tank busters in the same time. Tanks having it has nothing to do with it. That means more mitigation. Since it STACKS.

[Xygoz]

And do I have to repeat myself Reprisal is MORE then enough to mitigate the ae's you are talking about, and since we are talking about these AoE's lets add in the fact that there is Feint and Addle in the game that all melee and caster have access to as well that can also help mitigate the Aoe's. Stop over selling the skill its an ok skill for sure, but your raid is NOT and ill say it again NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT going to miss it....

The point is its not enough to make you want to take a mch over a bard, and again ill say what I have many times now this is totally acceptable but only if Mch has dps over bard otherwise there is no trade off for its lack of support.

[Aletin]

And do I have to repeat myself Reprisal is MORE then enough to mitigate the ae's you are talking about, and since we are talking about these AoE's lets add in the fact that there is Feint and Addle in the game that all melee and caster have access to as well that can also help mitigate the Aoe's.

Sure, reprisal is enough, so dismantle is not needed, but at the same time, that applies to troubadour. If reprisal is enough so dismantle isn't necessary, why would troubadour be necessary?
The point stands that comparing dismantle to troubadour, dismantle is more reliable as it doesn\\'t rely on the current song, and can mitigate more things, because of the associated cool down. The only benefit troubadour has is the duration, which if used at the same points as dismantle, would at most help with auto attacks, and that's only if it's on Warden's Paean, the least useful of the troubadour effects

[Xygoz]

Agreed, value wise you still get more from a bard which is why the scale is the way it is atm. unless MCH dps is high enough to off set the support it lacks which again is really hard to do without touching bard because of how rng there dps can be.

The changes are on the right track for the most part but it still needs more dps IMO.