The WoL vs the Scions?

[KaivaC]

After thinking about this for a while, I wonder…would there ever be a scenario where the WoL would have to fight against the Scions themselves? Obviously not to the death, but maybe due to a pretty significant difference of opinion between them. It’s clear the at this point, the WoL has accomplished many feats that the Scions could not dare dream of. My follow-up to that question is, could the Scions even stop the WoL as they currently are?

I’ve been wondering this ever since we dealt with the Warriors of Darkness. Even though their actions were pretty …well, they were pretty flimsy, considering how evil they acted, only to try and portray their cause as justifiable. The Scions had no choice but to fight to save their world. But even then, even with Minfilia acting on behalf of Hydaelyn to save their world, something about what the WoD said really stuck out in my mind. In their world, they fought and fought until there was nothing left to fight. That, and because of their actions, the light overtook their world because there was nothing to balance it out.

Fast forward to when you fight Lahabrea and the female Ascian, they make mention that the WoL looks for a challenge and implies that they seek something to despise just to fight and slay it. Recently in Stormblood, Zenos heavily implies that the WoL lives for the thrill of a fight. There’s an optional choice to tell him that you accept him after his speech about the lust for battle. I’m not sure about you guys, but I told him that I accepted him, because truth is, my WoL does look for a thrill in a fight.

I wonder if there will come a point where the WoL decides that there needs to be balance, and pushes back against the increasingly non-neutral Scions. Granted, Ilberd forced the Scions hands, but could there be a moment in which the WoL fights against their allies? Maybe for keeping balance, or for simply seeking a thrilling fight?

I realize my question kind of splintered off into two directions, but hey, that’s what a discussion is for, innit?

[Anonymoose]

Trying to wrap one long ramble around all of those questions, lol:

The Warriors of Darkness were manipulated by a false premise: that the fall of their world was absolutely inevitable and that forcing it into The Rejoining (whereby the aether of their world would be collapsed back into the Source dimension where its beings might be reborn as something new) was preferable to the Flood of Light (whereby aether would cease to exist and neither life nor death would ever exist for the beings there again). Elidibus claims to care for balance in general, but so far the only balance he's exhibited any care for is for controlled chaos, rising towards Calamity (Rejoining) without provoking a Flood. It all seems in perfect service to the will of the Dark; any benefit to the Light seems temporary and incidental in his grand plan at the moment.

Igeyorhm, meanwhile, was speaking of mortals in general. The primals are called and given shape by the desires of mortals. Therefore, by fighting them we are fighting mortal will itself. Obviously, mankind wants to be pitted against one another, wants foes to despise and cast down. She kind of undermines her own point, though, by saying that it's good that we want to fight one another because that chaos will lead to Zodiark's rebirth. If the Warrior of Light is out to thwart the will of the Dark, that's all the reason they need to loathe the primals. Smiting ones enemies usually has benefits after all - the only real question is whether Zodiark is [A] evil, [B] incidentally inconsistent with the existence of mortal life and our world as we know and fight for it, or [C] neither. Hydaelyn would have us believe A, Elidibus C. For now I believe B.

The Warrior of Light's battles are tough to parse. On one hand, by fighting for Hydaelyn we're clearly tipping the scales in the Light's favor. But how far? She's losing, and she's been losing for a long time. Meanwhile, most of the Darkness we're casting out is the result of direct Ascian intervention. If we do not thwart it, Calamity will result. Worlds will be destroyed. The Ascians would have us accept this "necessary evil" to restore the universe to its original form, but mortals aren't great at being told what to do or following the whims of gods forever and ... did mortals even exist back then?

To fight the Scions, then, we would need to fundamentally disagree on what is in service to Eorzea's salvation, or someone would have to go against their creed and prioritize something higher. For the time being, nothing the Scions are fighting seems even remotely defensible unless you just buy into the Ascian agenda wholesale. They seem to agree that primals are bad for Eorzea, that the Empire having manufacted Echo and enslaving primals is bad for Eorzea, that Omega is bad for Eorzea, and so on. Plus they're a rather diplomatic bunch with so much on their plate that is obviously bad for Eorzea that there's not much time or reason to debate the rest.

Which brings up the key question: if the Warrior of Light and Scions are fighting, does it not undermine their own existence? Not to say it's not possible, or that there aren't convincing reasons it could happen - but it feels like it'd be a temporary thing, a failed negotiation of priorities and points of view. Lyse came close a few times, getting so wrapped up in Ala Mhigo that she might prioritize it over Eorzea at large, but even with that mere risk she simply resigned.

I tend to view the Scions less as an inherently noble bloc of heroes and more as a loose collaboration of everyone who's suffered and "can't sit around doing nothing" who haven't died for the cause, yet. I see them as the fantasy equivalent of the trope of the old, depressed, bitter, divorced, alcoholic cop who's just taking down one bad guy at a time until it all catches up with them. They might bicker with the other cops, but unless one of them is corrupted, the overall mission is too well-defined and obvious to be a source of conflict. (For now.) I suppose one could pull another trope from the same hat and have a Scion lose patience with "the system" and go rogue to "get results", making everything more complicated in the process. Ironically, the one thing the Scions (usually) do in a healthy manner is one of the best ways to weed out conflict: communicate well.

I think Elidibus demonstrated the most likely avenue for conflict - manipulate their point of view with half of the truth and hope the rest falls through the cracks. He actually came close to manifesting all of that in Urianger through cold, hard logic. But in Urianger's time with the Leveilleurs and the Warrior of Light, he'd come to have something he wouldn't have had otherwise: faith that things aren't always as clear as they seem and that a better way exists if only someone will labor to find it. (An Ascian killing Moenbryda didn't exactly help, either.)

EDIT: Oh, right, Zenos. I think its open to interpretation how correct Zenos was in assuming the Warrior of Light loved battle for the sake of battle. Everyone will have to decide that for themselves. The story exhibits the Warrior of Light fighting for a larger cause more often than not, yet the DRK story alone cedes freedom of interpretation back to the player. Still, Zenos was mostly just, how do you say, "cray cray". The closest thing he knew to feeling was in being resisted and so he internalized force as an expression of volition so hard that the moment he was overpowered was the only joy he'd ever known. He identified our ability to overcome him with that we must be just like him, his worst enemy and best friend, and then killed himself to preserve that one perfect moment in eternity before it could be sullied. Not a guy I'd trust judging others' motives, is all I'm saying.

[AphraelAmarantha]

I denied Zenos not because my WoL is a goody two shoes but because she thinks she is and is in complete denial of her own nature, murdering armies and innocents in her wake just because of what she thinks is right lol. Even the journal entry I think mentions that the WoL has accepted violence for violence's sake.

I don't think the devs are that daring even though I think it would be cool to see the WoL's interests clash with the Scions at times. In fact I think it would be interesting to see a plot line go down this path where you are legitimately at odds for whatever reason with the Scions and you leave and have to fight their members later due to you thinking what you are doing is right. Maybe you will have other allies with you or support your views against the Scions like Aymeric or Lyse or something.

[Mysterysword]

Still, Zenos was mostly just, how do you say, "cray cray".

Oh-so-much. I love how much of the WoL is open to interpretation, but at the same time, this ambiguity really seems to confuse a lot of other people.

For me, it would be true to say that Siesta denied Zenos because she's desperately clinging to the remnants of humanity that makes all the difference between her and Zenos. She accepts that she enjoys battle to a thoroughly unhealthy extent, but keeps her friends around her to remind her of a better life. It would also be entirely accurate to say that Siesta denied Zenos, quite simply, because he's nuts and she doesn't want anything to do with him. Don't stick it in crazy, after all. And he stabbed her more than a few times. She has friends who don't stab her. That's pretty important.

There have been instances in other FF games where you've ended up fighting your allies. Not counting characters who started out as your enemies and then switched sides, I can think of:

- FF XII: Vossler (Dies)
- FF XII Revenant Wings: Balthier and Fran (Don't die, turns out they were right about why you were fighting and you were wrong)
- FF IV: Yang (Brainwashed)
- FF IV: Kain (Brainwashed)

In fact, the latter two examples remind me that we've technically already fought one of the Scions, since Lahabrea hijacked Thancred. It's safe to say that the writers aren't hesitant to have us fight the Scions. I'd be surprised if we ever fought the twins, though.

[KaivaC]

Oh, if we fought Alisaie, it would absolutely break her, given how much she idolizes the WoL. Actually, it would break the Scions entirely. Thancred already lost Minfilia, Alphinaud had to deal with the Crystal Braves' betrayal, Y'shtola would say something along the lines of how power always corrupts, and ex-Scion Lyse would probably break as well, given what happened with Papalymo and then all of SB. Truth be told, given what the WoL has fought, I don't think the Scions could stop the WoL. Still, I would find it interesting and far away from the typical norm were a disagreement happen that put them at odds with one another. Hell that could be a whole expansion right there - you fighting the Scions, and then having to find a way to be allies once more.

[TheCount]

No, in terms of raw power and ability they would be quite unable to stop him.

However, it's possible that they could hamper his ability to kick their behinds somewhat through some trickery or another. Still unlikely to do the trick ultimately as even without the blessing of light for example the WoL is extremely powerfull, but yeah. A very slight maybe then.

[Cilia]

I would not suggest giving much thought to the words of either the Ascians or Zenos. The Ascians are trying to shake your resolve, and Zenos is a psychopath who shouldn't be listened to for your own sanity. The right thing to do is just tell them to shut the kupo up.

Does the Warrior of Light enjoy a good scrap? Maybe. They seemed to enjoy sparring with Lyse, but there is a big difference between a friendly sparring match with a friend and a fight to the death with a psychopath. That's why I can't accept Zenos' assessment - my character didn't wade into battle on the streets of Ala Mhigo to fight him again, she did it to bring him to justice and repatriate the Ala Mhigan people. She has no illusions about who she is and owns what she has done. Anyone trying to shake her resolve will get something like the aformentioned "Shut the kupo up!"

Would Temujin go against the Scions? If it came to that... yes. Still, unless their mission changes that's unlikely, because she doesn't fight for the thrill of it. Temujin fights to end the fighting and go home.