[dev1032] [dev1033] The Class System and growth

[ARoy]

One of my main beefs with the FFXIV armory system in the first place is that a particular class is forced to use this weapon or that. There should be some more spread here, people. I don't want to be forced to tank because I like using swords.

Already Mages can use shields. There's no reason to force people to use certain weapons two handed (Axes, Lances). Lances being two handed in FFT was to balance their extended range. Crossbows and guns also make a nice one handed weapon.

Class Distinction is nice and all, but forcing every tank to be a sword user or every DPS to be a axe wielder will just make it bland and boring. We need variety within the classes, but not to the point of them being indistinguishable as they are now.

We need to define classes by their abilities, not their weapons. Of course some weapons would just plain make less sense to equip on one class or another than others, and so should either require either special skills (As Equip Swords/Axes/Brawl/Lances/Bows/Guns/etc. via FFT), or incur major penalties for using them.

A white mage using a great sword or gun instead of a staff, for instance, is silly. -50% Accuracy?

[Cairdeas]

Mira, the issue is that in XIV they are Weapon Classes, Not Classes like you see in WoW or other games. (Hunter etc)

Gladiator litterally means Sword User in Latin, and in Japanese the same "Sword User". It is not a Paladin, a warrior or a dark knight. But it can be all three if you give it the right skills. As a "Class of Weapons" Gladiator is Swords and all of their uses, both offensive and defensive.

[ARoy]

Mira, the issue is that in XIV they are Weapon Classes, Not Classes like you see in WoW or other games. (Hunter etc)

Gladiator litterally means Sword User in Latin, and in Japanese the same "Sword User". It is not a Paladin, a warrior or a dark knight. But it can be all three if you give it the right skills. As a "Class of Weapons" Gladiator is Swords and all of their uses, both offensive and defensive.

Right... My comment was in response to OP's suggestion. As I said, there should be some class definition where a weapon will be more or less beneficial to one particular player; they shouldn't be indistinguishable and deciding your class based on your weapon... is silly... hmm...

It suddenly occurs to me that these jobs we're talking about recently would all make much more sense as not being related to your 'weapon class'. As Cairdeas just said, you learn all swordskills as a gladiator.

However, I must point out that you also learn provoke, cover, and rampart, all of which have nothing to do with swords themselves and instead are more job-related skills.

What if... instead of sword users learning that, they learn base sword skills as per usual. Circle Slash and Onion Cut, maybe the elemental strikes (I say maybe because these become far more useful when the enemies are finally more developed and have not only elemental weaknesses, but the effects of your skills will actually matter as well).

Then you tack on, say, Paladin, and he also learns cure, provoke, rampart, cover, phalanx, etc. Things that will help him do his job and are only available to that job. And these spells (or rather, this particular combination of spells/skills) are only available while you have Paladin tacked on - it can also be tacked on to certain other classes once requirements have been met, but you can't use sword skills unless you are using a sword (and have Gladiator class). And of course you have the option of removing Paladin and tacking on something else.

Ideally such a system would have seperate SP for your weapons and JP for your jobs.

Con/Thm would have to be worked differently. Maybe I should start a thread of my own..?

Then again, I coulda sworn I've seen someone come up with a system just like this around here somewhere...

EDIT: Not being able to equip weapons on one class or another is an unnecessary game mechanic that realistically makes no sense. However, given that a white mage would generally have no reasonable sharpshooting skills makes it sensible to incur a penalty or require a special skill (They practice magic, not shooting people, after all.) And a gun isn't really going to help a white mage do their job much anyway.

Doesn't mean you should take the option away. Remember, some people are playing because they want to have fun. If playing a shooty-priest is how they wanna do it then that's entirely up to them.

[Chibino]

However, given that a white mage would generally have no reasonable sharpshooting skills makes it sensible to incur a penalty or require a special skill (They practice magic, not shooting people, after all.) And a gun isn't really going to help a white mage do their job much anyway.

Doesn't mean you should take the option away. Remember, some people are playing because they want to have fun. If playing a shooty-priest is how they wanna do it then that's entirely up to them.

lol i find this funny because if you look at FF jobs fusilier, flintlock & cannoneer from the FF tactics series they had a magic gunner types which magic infused bullets that would do cure+regen (sounds familiar?) or status effects like protect's +def or stoneskin. even in sleep and confusion, these job was among my favorite jobs with in any of the FF series. it is like how i wish FF 11 red mage was a range melee like guns.

[Cairdeas]

Yes, but I'm also of the mind that equipping skills that aren't suited to your job should make them either unusable or incur penalties. They already do this for some skills (non casters can't AOE, using a slash skill with a thrust weapon is weaker than on a slash weapon with the same numbers).

In my system Equipping Skills not native nets you no bonus and there is a higher slot cost to equip them. If like I said the bonus is the introduction of stats when you equip a skill (IE Equipping Cure while Job is White Mage gives you a bonus to MND and MP) then equipping non synergy skills grants you no bonus and you use it at your detriment.

lol i find this funny because if you look at FF jobs fusilier, flintlock & cannoneer from the FF tactics series they had a magic gunner types which magic infused bullets that would do cure+regen (sounds familiar?) or status effects like protect's +def or stoneskin. even in sleep and confusion, these job was among my favorite jobs with in any of the FF series. it is like how i wish FF 11 red mage was a range melee like guns.

Correct

[Rau]

Radicals/staffs give better Mag Acc/Pot so they should be for BLM.
Wand for WHM


and call me old fashion but I think PLDs should stick with sword and shield, and maybe occasionally use greatsword.

Greatswords should be used for Berserkers or Dark Knights :#

[Zantetsuken]

Radicals/staffs give better Mag Acc/Pot so they should be for BLM.
Wand for WHM


and call me old fashion but I think PLDs should stick with sword and shield, and maybe occasionally use greatsword.

Greatswords should be used for Berserkers or Dark Knights :#

Please understand that main-hand weapons would need to be reconfigured to accommodate the new Disciples of Magic classes. A radical, staff, or wand under the new system would be given abilities better suited for their respective classes.

On the Greatsword issue, its just an idea that would change the way PLD are thought of in this game. Instead of being a copy of the Solider/Gladiator with some spells, it would be interesting to see a PLD that hits hard, gains MP from damage taken, and uses spells to ward off damage.

Again, just ideas. I would be just as happy with traditional/classic Sword and Shield setup for the PLD class.

[Mahi]

Job combo like FFT would be very sweet in this game and would fit in perfectly. The starting jobs are the base or core for all advance class and depending on the combination of weapon ranks could unlock quest that reward you with a new weapon class:

(MRD 30 + PUG 30) = WAR quest (dualist with Axe's)
(GLD 30 + SEN 30 + CON 20) = PLD quest
(CON 40) = WHM/BLM quest
(PLD 30 + WHM 30) = Templar/Cleric quest

edit: sorry hit tab then enter ><;

But I also think they should keep the PL also, but your PL should be the main factor that everything is base on. Thats why we have the ability to change our owe stats right? If I know in my heart that I'm going to be the best PLD the world has ever seen. Them I'm going to put stats on VIT, MND, DEX and nothing else. But this would kill you if you ever want to play something else, But thats the reason for the best in the world. Also all your traits, amount of abilities you can equip are based on you PL not the rank. This way it would give more ranks uniqueness: rank 20 but PL 10, one could only equip 2 maybe 3 skills

If you are PL 30 then should be as strong as a lvl 30, not level 1 because you just got a new weapon. PL works very well are the very start of the game but is phased out quick like through back tracking new ranks are crafting. As for me I'm lvl 50 but my highest rank is 33, and i get my ass kicked by lvl 40 mobs. That should not happen, I should be able to take a long 20 min (as long as cures last) fight swaging my rank 33 sword and missing 10 times in a row before landing a hit. This kinda falls in the same domain as skill up parties worked FFXI. LVL75 with a lvl 1 dagger skill attacking a goblin in the jungle for 30 mins.

Granted I think PL XP should be quadrupled, it should take a very long time to gain a PL. It was just too easy to get for me... I did do alot of crafting before the gimp because of that greedy repair npc, was getting like a PL a day, should take a week or more.... anyways PL should = how strong you are, how long you have been in the world (uncapped PL can go as high as you would like, grated the xp would just get so ridiculous where it would become pointless to even try). Rank should = the abilities of that class/weapon.

I think this would give a new spin things instead of the same old war 1~ 30 start over, pug 1 ~ 20 start over, con 1 ~ 20... .. . At the begging this would give enough challenge to keep things fresh and at end game would help you speed up getting new abilities for new jobs and you know SE is going give us a metric ton of jobs, just a matter of time. It's kinda the same idea as you don't need to learn how to drive a car just because you got a new one, you just have to learn how to drive that new car differently.

sorry for the rambling, but this was a pretty cool thread to read got me into it :O

[Llan]

One of my main beefs with the FFXIV armory system in the first place is that a particular class is forced to use this weapon or that. There should be some more spread here, people. I don't want to be forced to tank because I like using swords.

Already Mages can use shields. There's no reason to force people to use certain weapons two handed (Axes, Lances). Lances being two handed in FFT was to balance their extended range. Crossbows and guns also make a nice one handed weapon.

Class Distinction is nice and all, but forcing every tank to be a sword user or every DPS to be a axe wielder will just make it bland and boring. We need variety within the classes, but not to the point of them being indistinguishable as they are now.

We need to define classes by their abilities, not their weapons. Of course some weapons would just plain make less sense to equip on one class or another than others, and so should either require either special skills (As Equip Swords/Axes/Brawl/Lances/Bows/Guns/etc. via FFT), or incur major penalties for using them.

A white mage using a great sword or gun instead of a staff, for instance, is silly. -50% Accuracy?

Hmm...
I do agree that basic classes should have a more efficient way to evolve other then just becoming a stronger version of the first, basic class. However, I must say the idea of anyone being able to equip anything is by far, stupid.

What I would suggest to improve your idea Mira, is that SE could add a 2 Handed Sword or Great Sword evolution to the Gladiators class therefore people would be able to be a Tank or a slow attack speed DMG dealer. (I say slow, because the idea of a bersek class was meant to be for Marauders, am I right?)

Llan Hana.

[Chibino]

One of my main beefs with the FFXIV armory system in the first place is that a particular class is forced to use this weapon or that. There should be some more spread here, people. I don't want to be forced to tank because I like using swords.

Already Mages can use shields. There's no reason to force people to use certain weapons two handed (Axes, Lances). Lances being two handed in FFT was to balance their extended range. Crossbows and guns also make a nice one handed weapon.

Class Distinction is nice and all, but forcing every tank to be a sword user or every DPS to be a axe wielder will just make it bland and boring. We need variety within the classes, but not to the point of them being indistinguishable as they are now.

We need to define classes by their abilities, not their weapons. Of course some weapons would just plain make less sense to equip on one class or another than others, and so should either require either special skills (As Equip Swords/Axes/Brawl/Lances/Bows/Guns/etc. via FFT), or incur major penalties for using them.

A white mage using a great sword or gun instead of a staff, for instance, is silly. -50% Accuracy?

i agree that that there needs to be some flexibility in weapons. 2handed swords should be able to be used by both dark knight, warriors & paladins. maybe adding favor classes there would be a bonus to the class type like:

Favors = +10% dmg & acc
non-Favors = -20% dmg & acc

this would gives a 30% difference, if the base dmg is 50 then a positive bonus would be 55 dmg while a negative bonus would be 40 dmg as it scales up 500 base damage would be 550 vs 400 damage this should be enough difference but still but still prove to be useful. artifact weapons should favor fewer classes then non-artifact weapons.

what should set apart the uniqueness in classes is class only passives and active abilities. in FF 11 each class had few passive traits that grew with level, but not all passives transfered over when the it was sub-job. since FF 14 doesnt have class only traits that grow with rank and some class only lack luster active abilities like FF 11's 2hour abilities. people start to see all classes as the same. by giving classes some class only passives and maybe one 1hr and one 30min abilities people might see how classes can be more unique with out swapping out skills.