1.20a tomorrow :D

[Firon]

An ad hominem attack doesn't invalidate his current opinion about the combo system.

I actually have the same opinion about the current system myself. The system at rank 50 works perfectly with my Gladiator, but it feels totally incomplete in the low-midlevel range with my other characters. Before the skill streamlining of 1.20, early access to "weaker" versions of the tier 2/3 stuff made me feel like I could get a taste of the complete package around level 20-30. Subsequent levels gave me access to really cool skills, but even before then the tier 1 skills were sufficient to let you get a chance at how the classes should play like.

With the new skill streamlining, now I'm leveling simply waiting for the next skill that I can use to complete this incomplete combo. It feels like a core component of my character is completely missing until I hit the necessary levels to get my combo finishers.

I have the same opinion as Rowyne about the current combat system. To me, the current combat system feels a little less interactive (unless I'm fighting something stupid hard that requires me to watch my HP). It definitely feels more streamlined with the combo mechanics dictating what you should do, but the positional requirements really screw me up because of Square's current client server architecture where the client fails to properly update the server often enough on positional changes.

The "additional" affects from hitting from the proper side should be bonuses you should still get, but it should not be a requirement to keep a combo going. If the client was properly updating the server on position changes, I would be for it, but I've had too many instances where on my screen I hit with a WS that requires a backstab, but the game tells me I hit from the left/right.

To anyone who wants to keep it civilized and add their two cents about the combo system, there's a couple great threads in the Battle Mechanics forum about this.

So your saying you should be doing the same thing as a lvl 50 from the get go? It's like someone saying why only the higher level weapon skills look better. After all you said tho even @ lvl 30 All classes have 3 combo options to use, then at level 50 5 of them.

[Rowyne]

So your saying you should be doing the same thing as a lvl 50 from the get go? It's like someone saying why only the higher level weapon skills look better. After all you said tho even @ lvl 30 All classes have 3 combo options to use, then at level 50 5 of them.

Not to put words in someone else's mouth (and excuse me if I am), but what I think Bahn is trying to say is that combat should be fun and balanced at all level tiers. No, of course you shouldn't be getting level 50 spells and abilities at level one. But combat should be designed to feel fluid and come together throughout the entire level climb, not feel like something's missing.

[AdvancedWind]

But every class learns at least one non-TP based ability before level 6. And level 6 takes like, 20 minutes to reach even for a new player. Btw, only lancer takes that much to learn a non-TP skill, however even their level 1 weaponskill has positional bonus. The Level 2, by the way, has a bonus when used from behind. Guess how you should initiate combat whenever you have spill over TP from the previous fight?

Now, we can all argue that there's no TP-free attack ability, which is true. However, why exactly is that "bad"? Even at low levels, when fighting an even match mob, you need 3 attacks tops to reach 1.000TP, which then can be used to combo into two weaponskills at lower levels, 3 when higher. Also, many enemies have skills that can be avoided, so if you are just standing still and doing nothing while charging up TP, you are likely doing it wrong. Yes, server lag screws that up currently, but this should be much more important (and easier to do) when 2.0 hits. And Yes, Invigorate exists and this game *does* encourage us to level multiple classes. Heck, they even made 90% of the cross classable skills obtainable before level 30, and some of the most useful ones (Second Wind, Invigorate, Cure, Sentinel) are relatively low level.

Also, when leveling up normally, more often than not you will end battles with extra TP to spare - so, most of the time, you *can* start a battle right away with a weaponskill

I do not stand still waiting on TP with my level 10 marauder. I'm always buffing up, trying to use Brutal Swing from the sides for the extra damage, using Heavy Swing => Skull Sunder combo every 10 seconds or so, trying to avoid a few enemy attacks, etc, etc. I may not be always proactively using skills all the time, but I'm not just standing still either.

FFXIV does take a different approach when it comes to skill usage. You are not supposed to trounce everything with skills all the time, specially not at the beginning of a fight. Sure, you can burn up your MP as a mage, but you will need to recover afterwards. Melees, however, have to build up a resource beforehand - and then are able to use several skills in succession via combos, before having to rebuff, evade enemy attacks and ready up for another chain.

It's a somewhat different philosophy and surely there will be people wishing for a much faster combat, but then it's a matter of personal taste and not exactly a flaw within the game. Not saying the current system has no flaws, but it's far from being broken and completely dull.

[Rowyne]

Now, we can all argue that there's no TP-free attack ability, which is true.

Okay, now we're on the same page. Don't you agree it's much better to be civil than say someone's opinions are worthless and should be ignored?

This is the heart of the melee combat issue for me.

However, why exactly is that "bad"? Even at low levels, when fighting an even match mob, you need 3 attacks tops to reach 1.000TP, which then can be used to combo into two weaponskills at lower levels, 3 when higher.

I think you just answered your own question. Three auto-attacks before you can do anything. In an MMO, that's an eternity.

I understand what you're saying. That you should be moving and buffing and using reactive skills in the meantime. And now cross-classing isn't an option, it's a must. But it doesn't take away from the fact that melee now cannot actively initiate combat with an attack ability unless you have a level 14 Lancer skill or TP stored from a previous fight. And the reason that is bad is that it makes combat feel non-interactive.

FFXIV does take a different approach when it comes to skill usage. You are not supposed to trounce everything with skills all the time, specially not at the beginning of a fight. Sure, you can burn up your MP as a mage, but you will need to recover afterwards. Melees, however, have to build up a resource beforehand - and then are able to use several skills in succession via combos, before having to rebuff, evade enemy attacks and ready up for another chain.

It's a somewhat different philosophy and surely there will be people wishing for a much faster combat, but then it's a matter of personal taste and not exactly a flaw within the game. Not saying the current system has no flaws, but it's far from being broken and completely dull.

It's certainly a different approach, one that's definitely not for me. I thought combat was too slow before. Now it feels even slower. It's worse than FFXI, and I didn't think that was possible. It's like being stuck in a Goku power-up when I just want to jump into the fray. >.<

I'm happy for the people who like this style of combat. I will, however, be genuinely surprised if it appeals to more than the niche market this game caters to that grows smaller and smaller as time goes on.

My husband and I had been on the fence about subscribing come Jan 6th, but 1.20 was the nail in the coffin. I'll continue to watch the patch notes and hope that the dev team make changes that restore some non-TP active attack abilities. If not, no matter how many good things come in 2.0, it's hard to play if you don't enjoy combat.

[AdvancedWind]

I understand what you're saying. That you should be moving and buffing and using reactive skills in the meantime. And now cross-classing isn't an option, it's a must.

Hardly. In fact, they made it so cross classing is not that important as before, and made it far easier to get the really useful skills. Before, you had to level several melee classes to learn plenty of buffs and different weaponskills, and the less is said about Quickstride, Chameleon, Sentinel or Cure III, the better. A Gladiator was pretty much forced to level Marauder and Pugilist to tank

Nowadays, unless you *really* want to, you can easily do a reasonably good job for most of the game just learning cure (losing all 5 minutes of your life to do so), and if you want other skills, you can learn most of the useful ones before level 20.

If they dumb down the cross classing any further, they should just do away with the system entirely and lose one of the (imo) best points of the game.

But it doesn't take away from the fact that melee now cannot actively initiate combat with an attack ability unless you have a level 14 Lancer skill or TP stored from a previous fight. And the reason that is bad is that it makes combat feel non-interactive

Combat suddenly becomes non-interactive because you're not using an attack skill all the time?

I refer to my previous post: Most of the time, you should be moving around, buffing up, evading moves and etc for optmal performance. Selecting >awesomeweaponskill II isn't the only kind of interaction possible.

[Coglin]

Now, we can all argue that there's no TP-free attack ability, which is true.

Okay, now we're on the same page. Don't you agree it's much better to be civil than say someone's opinions are worthless and should be ignored?

My biggest issue, one that cannot be circumvented, is the fact that you can no longer use any abilities to actively initiate combat.

Now see, this is where I take issue. There are TP-free attack ability, again if you had any experience with mellee classes, you may or may not know this. There are at least 5.

Also, its not so much that people are calling your opinion worthless, they are calling it flat out invalid. Frankly with good reason, the vast majority of you post here have flat out wrong informaion. Meaning you clearly do not have a working knowledge of the subject you wish to lecture on.

Stood over my husband's shoulder and watched him.

SO the heck what? I watched my wife make an ice sculpture once to. That by al means does not mean I have the experience or knowledge to go to an ice sculpture forums and post lectures.

Your post contain misinformation after misinformation after misinformation. its not your opinion thats getting you personally attacked. Its the fact that you do not appear to know what you are talking about that gets you attacked. Then you further attempt to defend you post of misinformation. Its a Fact that there are at least 5 abilities to initiate combat with 0 TP.

No one is telling you to shut up and get out

We are telling you to get a clue or shut up nd get out.

[AdvancedWind]

Now see, this is where I take issue. There are TP-free attack ability, again if you had any experience with mellee classes, you may or may not know this. There are at least 5.

Uhh...

There are no TP free attack skills, bro. The closest we have are the reactionary skills, and they still use 250/500TP.

[Coglin]

Uhh...

There are no TP free attack skills, bro. The closest we have are the reactionary skills, and they still use 250/500TP.

You sir are wrong.

Example of one
Light Shot
Optimal Level : 1
Delivers a ranged atack

Also, there are 4 more that are avaliable cross class to any class, that I can think of off the top of my head, I would have to log in game to check if there are more.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

"slow here, slow there" it's really a matter of perception. I still play ffxi sometimes, and believe me : right now every class reach haste cap very easely, and the game it's MUCH slower of ffxiv right now. Take off all haste, store tp and multi-hit weapons and you'll see an even slower game than before.
If 3 AA it's slow for you, look back to wow: the days where you waited 5 stack of sunder armor before even engage aren't so far

[Rowyne]

If 3 AA it's slow for you, look back to wow: the days where you waited 5 stack of sunder armor before even engage aren't so far

The difference is, that's a tank using a threat-generating ability. I know a lot of people who hated playing Warriors in WoW because of the overly complicated abilities and stance-dances. Warriors were redone so that they're much more simple and fun to play, now.

In FFXIV, all melee classes now abide by this setup. Not just one. Not as easy to change to a different class if you don't like it.

I like how everyone is trying to change the opinion of one person (two if you count Row's hubby) who actually plays the game and wishes well for its future. When 2.0 is released, are we going to knock door-to-door on the homes of new players telling them that the game is good?

Thanks, Rubicon. I'm not sitting here giving feedback because I'm a troll or I have nothing better to do. I sincerely do wish for a game that's fun for many people.