would this be OP?

[SweetPete]

Hello,

I been thinking for a while now about AST and both it's sects. I enjoy both and always swap to the correct sect when my co-healer is either WHM or SCH. How about in 5.0 if they got rid of both sects and just made it so aspected benefic and helios will place both a shield and regen effect on the party. Now I know what you are thinking. "OMG that would make AST totally OP and will make the other healers not viable. Just hear me out a second.

When AST was first introduced they made it seem like it's regens wouldn't be as great as WHM and it's shields not as great as SCH. We are now in 4.41 and basically AST is the master of both. Let's be honest here. Sure WHM and SCH has some nice niche that makes them viable but AST can sort of out perform them both. What I am thinking is make those abilities apply both but at half potency. That way WHM reigns supreme over regens and SCH reigns supreme over shields. AST already has cards and so many other abilities that support the party. I don't believe this would make AST OP at all but what are you guys thoughts?

[HyoMinPark]

Your suggestion doesn't address the issue of shields not stacking. Having an AST/SCH comp with this suggestion would be a nightmare, since lesser shields from one can already overwrite the more powerful shields of another. Plus there would be issues in groups where you have AST/AST since neither Diurnal HoTs or Nocturnal shields stack (I'm more obviously talking about random matching, but there are speed kill and parse groups that take double AST).

[Lastelli]

The nice thing about SCH is that it's not only about shields, which is why the devs decided to give more potent shields to noct AST (and this didn't stop SCH being the preferred shield/mitigation/oGCD/fairy regen healer).
Devs should probably acknowledge that SCH can't be replaced and work towards making ast and whm equally desirable. Or they should remove AST sects and make a new healer, trying then to create 2 equally desirable healing couples.

[SweetPete]

Hi,

You are right. I didn't address it and I will now. You know how WHM and DRK have shields as well? Now I know they work on percentage and not potency. This is how AST shields can work. It will stack with SCH shields but it just wouldn't be as powerful. How would it be a nightmare? SCH shields would always be top notch over AST and the AST shield will just be a tiny bit more mitigation along side of it with also the added regen effect as well. For AST/AST combo. Yes the regens can stack much like WHM/AST can now or AST/AST but the shield will not. Now I know this can get confusing but it's really simple. If AST 1 cast aspect helios and gives the party regen and shield effect and let's say AST 2 does the same thing to give a secondary regen effect. Now since AST 1 already cast it first and the shield is still on the party it will not overwrite it. Now it will add a shield to those who doesn't have one like the tank usually since their shields always tend to come off first.

[SweetPete]

I agree Lastelli.

[HyoMinPark]

Hi,

You are right. I didn't address it and I will now. You know how WHM and DRK have shields as well? Now I know they work on percentage and not potency. This is how AST shields can work. It will stack with SCH shields but it just wouldn't be as powerful. How would it be a nightmare? SCH shields would always be top notch over AST and the AST shield will just be a tiny bit more mitigation along side of it with also the added regen effect as well.

The stacking of double shields means more mitigation via party shields, which will spell more trouble for WHM, who is already struggling enough as it is against AST as a regen healer in terms of both healing and damage, and who has no hope of competition when it comes to going up against SCH. Give the regen effect, and why bring a WHM at all? There is no need for the more potent HoTs that WHM would have in this situation when so much of the damage is mitigated by shields—the HoTs will serve to be nothing more than an overheal.

Imagine a 25,000 critical Adlo deployed on a party + AST shields that mitigate a percentage of the target’s HP bar—the party would take virtually no damage, or the damage would be so little that the halved-potency HoTs from AST would be more than enough to tick everyone up to full again. Imagine those combined with other existing shield utilities, such as Divine Veil and Shake It Off, or even damage mitigation tools like Dismantle or Troubadour. Unless you up outgoing damage or severely nerf the amount of mitigation all of these tools give, you’ve killed any necessity to even heal. Which, your argument for WHM in your proposed scenario is that they would be the “raw healer”. In any scenario, you’re obviously not stacking ALL of these tools (because that’s just over-mitigation), but you have more than enough to spread them out with AST/SCH shields to, again, reduce the need to even press healing buttons. I’d prefer having to heal more, not less—I can already do most non-Savage content relying on my oGCD heals and rarely having to pressing GCD heals outside of Noct pre-shielding.

What you have suggested is incredibly strong, and incredibly broken. You might as well delete WHM from the game at that point, because they will have no tools to come close to competing with that.

With regards to your asking how it would be a nightmare, I was referring to before when you had not insinuated any stacking of shields simply because of the amount of ASTs that would overwrite a deployed Critlo with their Aspected Helios shields. It already happens in some groups where ASTs refuse to go Diurnal Sect with a SCH in the party; I’ve seen it happen. With regards to your subsequent proposal, it would be a nightmare because it would be incredibly broken—though the nightmare would be exclusive only to WHM, who, as I said, might as well not even exist in this scenario.

For AST/AST combo. Yes the regens can stack much like WHM/AST can now or AST/AST but the shield will not. Now I know this can get confusing but it's really simple. If AST 1 cast aspect helios and gives the party regen and shield effect and let's say AST 2 does the same thing to give a secondary regen effect. Now since AST 1 already cast it first and the shield is still on the party it will not overwrite it. Now it will add a shield to those who doesn't have one like the tank usually since their shields always tend to come off first.

This may be just my opinion, but it seems like this would be an overt waste of the MP on Aspected Helios if you cannot gain the effects of both. Why spend double the mana cost for a (now-halved potency) regen (per your OP) when you can just use a naked Helios instead (and allow the single regen from AST #1 to tick up any remaining HP values that are still below 100%)? It doesn’t come off as MP efficient to me. Outgoing damage in most non-Savage/non-Ultimate content is already so little that HoTs are overkill (especially double HoTs), and I wonder if, even with you halving the potency of A. Helios’ regen, if that would still be the case. Because there just simply isn’t enough outgoing damage (and healers are stupidly OP in this game).

Same for the described situation with the tank—if they are the only one in need of a shield, an A. Benefic would be far more prudent for application compared to an A. Helios. But, even then, it’s not MP efficient to spam a Noct shield simply because of the cost of current A. Benefic, so I don’t imagine it would be prudent in your design to spam the shields either.

Again, to me it just doesn’t seem efficient. This is aside from the proposed rework continuing to not give AST it’s own identity: something it has struggled with since its inception. I wish I could have suggestions on how to give it its own identity, but sadly I do not. And this is not to say that I don’t enjoy AST as it stands now—it’s my second favorite job after my main—but it is nothing more than a hybrid of two existing healer concepts with a card gimmick.

For AST/AST combo. Yes the regens can stack much like WHM/AST can now or AST/AST

Just to clarify, AST HoTs cannot currently stack with each other; they overwrite. Only AST/WHM HoTs can stack. I may be misunderstanding your sentence, but just in case you were meaning they can currently stack. They cannot.

[DrWho2010]

9 times out of 10 if you ask yourself - "is this OP"? usually the answer is yes lol

[miraidensetsu]

snip

If S-E do this at 5.0, I would like to, at least, they create an actual damage rotation, give us more damage tools (like water, quake, tornado), double the DPS potencies, add an finisher (Ultima \o/) for us and slap a red color on our icon.

Competing with RDM, SMN and BLM for the Caster Ranged DPS slot would be more viable.

[Risvertasashi]

I don't believe this would make AST OP at all but what are you guys thoughts?

My honest assessment: This would make WHM+AST pairings very powerful in low end content, but would limit viability in high end content (Where Noct AST already struggles to compete with SCH at all).

[IanFrench]

yes, it is op