Thread: 1.20 destroyed the game again ?

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

You still haven't mentioned the level of the mobs you and your husband were fighing on your level 25 classes by the way Rowyne.

Quest enemies (from GC quests), leve enemies, and level 30 humanoids in Coerthas.

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

If you end up killing targets so fast in duo that your husband can't get hits in, then it's time to fight higher level mobs. Generally want to stick to mobs ~10 levels above you when not solo.

Also, Lv. 25, again, is quite on the low end. That's basically 2-3 days at most. Certainly not halfway to 50. At Lv 25 you can't say you know much about the class at all. I'm not even talking about hardcore time devotion in that many days to get to 25.

As for the whole lack of abilities, I already stated this is another MMO staple. You look at the skills you are yet to gain and they motivate you to advance.
The argument being made here seems to be much more about the lack of player-controlled attack skills that do not require TP at the beginning of a fight, when engaging an enemy. Such skills remaining after 1.18 introduced Auto-Attack was simply due to the action reform having not happened yet. All they did was provide the illusion of control. They hit as hard as an AA anyway. Very few of them had much use beyond that, such as the AoE ones.

If one properly targets and engages a target as they approach it they will begin their string of AA on it right away. The fact that you aren't pushing a button does not mean your character isn't doing anything while that AA is going off. That's simply how melee classes work. If one is not fond of it, then they can play ARC or a mage.

Any delay regarding AA startup once you engage an enemy is server-related and not due to design. If anything they ninja-fixed AA even further with 1.20. Now, using buffs and/or Weaponskills no longer delays your AA. Even if you are stuck in an animation when the AA is supposed to hit, you can see it still hitting in the chatlog. The attack-delay value on weapons matters that much more now because of it. The attack-delay of AA is very reliable now.

actually the cap on exp gained from rank difference changes with your level, so low level there no reason to kill mobs 10 levels higher, as well as it being a lot harder to impossible.

as far as people saying your shouldnt have a level 50 ability at level 1, yeah we get that, but if your class is about dodging you should be able to dodge, if your class is about managing mp you should be able to manage mp.
And while it is not impossible to solo combo everything it is also not easy, it is way easier to combo in groups, on a side note, its easier for me to hit the back consistently than the side due to being able to run through enemies. (although this is via the very unintutive method of unlocking targets and running through the enemy)

you should have some working synergies early in the game. Most of you dont get it because you are coming to this patch at high levels, but it really is noticeable, look at your combos, and look at the levels you can get some of these skills. keep in mind that new players will not have access to the 3 or so good cross class skills, and even less reason to get them once jobs are introduced. by the time you get out of the starting area in most games, you have like 2 or 3 working synergies, that all come together to make sense together. by the time your 10 here, you have a total of 6 skills. only two of them work together and depending on your job, they may be a lot harder to pull off solo/small groups.

essentially instead of expanding off working bases, most of your skills are just pieces of puzzle, not really becoming to useful until you get X skill. for example you guys mentioned stunning someone so you can get your combo off solo, well, you dont get haymaker till 18. the whole mp for damage mechanic? doesnt come into play at all until 22. So you have this skill that gives you mp back.. but you have no native use for mp till you are 22.

this type of build only encourages powering through levels, or getting powerleveled, through the levels where you are fairly weak and many peices are missing from your combat.

Im not saying the whole system is trash, but it is tuned around having 90% of your skills, it really makes it so combat doesnt really get interesting till mid 30s and doesnt come together great till almost 50.

Doing away with all non tp moves besides 1 was a mistake imo, not very job should have the same exact slow build for tp, it makes sense as a style for one melee, but it some jobs should be able to get in there early and do something of import besides wait for tp. Its most noticeably bad early on, when the pay off for getting tp is low, and methods of getting it fast are non existent. you literally cant do anything of import at all.

I mean you can protect it all you want, but the competition for this game is only increasing, and since they have taken a long term view on the game, it needs to be able to compete with everything else. and it needs to be fun ON THE WAY TO 50 while 99% of the people playing now are level 50 and like things tuned for their benefit, the truth is in order for this game to succeed it has to appeal to people more than its competition from level 1-35, because the majority of the people this game needs to succeed are not the current playerbase.

Originally Posted by Physic

actually the cap on exp gained from rank difference changes with your level, so low level there no reason to kill mobs 10 levels higher, as well as it being a lot harder to impossible.

as far as people saying your shouldnt have a level 50 ability at level 1, yeah we get that, but if your class is about dodging you should be able to dodge, if your class is about managing mp you should be able to manage mp.
And while it is not impossible to solo combo everything it is also not easy, it is way easier to combo in groups, on a side note, its easier for me to hit the back consistently than the side due to being able to run through enemies. (although this is via the very unintutive method of unlocking targets and running through the enemy)

you should have some working synergies early in the game. Most of you dont get it because you are coming to this patch at high levels, but it really is noticeable, look at your combos, and look at the levels you can get some of these skills. keep in mind that new players will not have access to the 3 or so good cross class skills, and even less reason to get them once jobs are introduced. by the time you get out of the starting area in most games, you have like 2 or 3 working synergies, that all come together to make sense together. by the time your 10 here, you have a total of 6 skills. only two of them work together and depending on your job, they may be a lot harder to pull off solo/small groups.

essentially instead of expanding off working bases, most of your skills are just pieces of puzzle, not really becoming to useful until you get X skill. for example you guys mentioned stunning someone so you can get your combo off solo, well, you dont get haymaker till 18. the whole mp for damage mechanic? doesnt come into play at all until 22. So you have this skill that gives you mp back.. but you have no native use for mp till you are 22.

this type of build only encourages powering through levels, or getting powerleveled, through the levels where you are fairly weak and many peices are missing from your combat.

Im not saying the whole system is trash, but it is tuned around having 90% of your skills, it really makes it so combat doesnt really get interesting till mid 30s and doesnt come together great till almost 50.

lastly, doing away with all non tp moves besides 1 was a mistake imo, not very job should have the same exact slow build for tp, it makes sense as a style for one melee, but it some jobs should be able to get in there early and do something of import besides wait for tp. Its most noticeably bad early on, when the pay off for getting tp is low, and methods of getting it fast are non existent. you literally cant do anything of import at all.

I mean you can protect it all you want, but the competition for this game is only increasing, and since they have taken a long term view on the game, it needs to be able to compete with everything else. and it needs to be fun ON THE WAY TO 50 while 99% of the people playing now are level 50 and like things tuned for their benefit, the truth is in order for this game to succeed it has to appeal to people more than its competition from level 1-35, because the majority of the people this game needs to succeed are not the current playerbase.

PGL gets Featherfoot at what.. Lv 2 now? There's your evasion. They also equip gear that tends to have evasion+ on them. On top of that, they also gain traits that boost evasion as they level up. There goes that argument.

As I said, having a non-TP basic attack only adds an illusion of control. AA is more than proficient. There's many things that make each class unique that you can trigger from the get-go once you engage an enemy. Whether it be enmity gaining abilities for the tanking classes, block/dodge/parry enhancing buffs to use in tandem with their reaction skills, or long-lasting offensive buffs such as Raging Strike, Power/Life Surge, Fire/Earth Fists, Berserk/Rampage - there are plenty of class-defining skills that one gains at levels prior to 40-50 that they can initiate battles with.

As mentioned there are also combos possible as early as level 10.

I wouldn't say I'm protecting anything really. Just calling it as I see it.

EDIT: Also, let's not forget that the revamp is not entirely done. The game is in a satisfactory state, but clearly needs improvements in many areas. Whether anyone will want to pay to play this now is up to them - but I assure you there are people who like what 1.20 did even at lower levels just like there may be people who don't. What matters is the direction in which the game is headed with these changes.

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

PGL gets Featherfoot at what.. Lv 2 now? There's your evasion. They also equip gear that tends to have evasion+ on them. On top of that, they also gain traits that boost evasion as they level up. There goes that argument.

As I said, having a non-TP basic attack only adds an illusion of control. AA is more than proficient. There's many things that make each class unique that you can trigger from the get-go once you engage an enemy. Whether it be enmity gaining abilities for the tanking classes, block/dodge/parry enhancing buffs to use in tandem with their reaction skills, or long-lasting offensive buffs such as Raging Strike, Power/Life Surge, Fire/Earth Fists, Berserk/Rampage - there are plenty of class-defining skills that one gains at levels prior to 40-50 that they can initiate battles with.

As mentioned there are also combos possible as early as level 10.

I wouldn't say I'm protecting anything really. Just calling it as I see it.

EDIT: Also, let's not forget that the revamp is not entirely done. The game is in a satisfactory state, but clearly needs improvements in many areas. Whether anyone will want to pay to play this now is up to them - but I assure you there are people who like what 1.20 did even at lower levels just like there may be people who don't. What matters is the direction in which the game is headed with these changes.

you dont get your pug reaction skill until 18, and you dont get use for mp till 22, so for pugilist, getting that extra dodge once every 60 seconds, while nice, has no synergy in place until level 18+

nothing you do do builds on anything else early in the leveling process, the only synergy you get early is pummel to concussive blow, which is probably the hardest combo to pull off consistently, (well probably a back>side is the worst but the side is the problem)
as far as gear, i hate to tell you but low level, most all melee will be wearing the same things, there is no low level heavy armor, no materia (materia needs level 18 before you can even try to attach it, and a crafting class, and people dont make low level gear especially with materia on it) once again you are looking at from a point of view of someone who is high level.

also most of those skills you mentioned you end up getting in mid 20s and higher, this is the problem im talking about, you start off feeling very little control in battle and it stays that way for too long.

And i do agree, that it is not finished, and need some tweaks, some of which will probably happen, but i can only speak on what is presented here, and i think they are ignoring the early leveling curve. To be totally honest before 1.20 i was ready to p2p, because it felt like they had a lot of things in place, and would be able to build in some interesting content on the world development, and refine the game a lot more, but post 1.20 i feel like its going to at least another 3to 5 months before combat is complete, probably another 6-7 months before they start putting in some interesting story content, and about 9-10 months (basically once they start implementing 2.0) before there is even a chance that there will be exploration and adventure that is fun, since they will probably hold off on a lot stuff until 2.0 so as to have less work that they have to dispose of.

It essentially went from looking like ok this game will be coming to its end in grand fashion, to this game is still being built.

maybe when jobs come it will all make sense, and at least there will be interesting quests for getting the gear, and the skills, as well as maybe some signifigant story stuff to go along with some battle adjustments. but as of right now, it needs some work imo