RDM's Vercure should be removed or heavily nerfed

[aleph_null]

RDM is also a very new class. I seem to recall when NIN was released and people were complaining about the abundance of that.

While that might be a big contributing factor for the majority of the playerbase in general, especially in casual contents, I doubt most people doing the final floor of the raid tier would prioritize playing the new class over playing something that contributes better to the group. I don't think I even need to look it up but I'm sure mch/ast weren't very popular in the first few weeks of gordias savage. I mean, even sam is by a decent margin behind rdm/brd/nin, which are arguably the strongest dps jobs for progression, in their own respective roles (caster/ranged/melee).

[Ceallach]

So explain to me how SMN was the "de facto" choice because of their raise by your statements and yet RDM raise is not a problem and in no way makes them the de facto choice, even though they push out more raises in a period of time then a WHM, AST, SCH and SMN. My issue isn't that RDM pushed SMN out of raiding, it is that utility shouldn't be on a dps, it should be on a healer.

Older raids had multiple enemies to deal with, Bane didn't hurt our DoT potency like it does now, Deathflare didn't lose potency like it does now, and black mages' area attack spells sucked compared to what they could do to single targets.

Now the only utility summoner really has that isn't clunky is either Resurrection or bound to a pet that doesn't respond well to commands. The former is covered by red mage, and the latter (Contagion, Aetherpact/Devotion and Radiant Shield) are forgettable at best.

That's why.

[Dualgunner]

When you see fflogs and there are 1150 neo exdeath parses for rdm, 189 for blm, 90 for smn, it's hard to deny that rdm is the de facto choice in raid progression, at least for a big part of the raiding community.

There are also 1,291 bard parses, versus machinist at 129. There are 1,084 ninjas versus 429 dragoons. Monk is a bit better off than DRG at 505, and SAM is at 806.

This data tells me that most people go with a physical specific comp with RDM, NIN, BRD, and SAM. But it's not RDM's fault, really--in fact if not for Embolden RDM would be swapped for DRG most likely. The comp is phys specific because of Trick Attack and BRD's 2% crit constantly, and that both mesh with the new heavyhitter being SAM. RDM is less taken for its raises for progression and more for its Embolden which more or less just makes RDM less "in the way".

[aleph_null]

There are also 1,291 bard parses, versus machinist at 129. There are 1,084 ninjas versus 429 dragoons. Monk is a bit better off than DRG at 505, and SAM is at 806.

This data tells me that most people go with a physical specific comp with RDM, NIN, BRD, and SAM. But it's not RDM's fault, really--in fact if not for Embolden RDM would be swapped for DRG most likely. The comp is phys specific because of Trick Attack and BRD's 2% crit constantly, and that both mesh with the new heavyhitter being SAM. RDM is less taken for its raises for progression and more for its Embolden which more or less just makes RDM less "in the way".

Uh, no. I doubt you'd give up addle, apoc and raise for early progression, not to mention the inconvenience of having 3 melees in some fights. Considering how lenient the mechanics and enrage timers (except o4s I guess) of the current raid tier, most of the early clears aren't clean pulls. People just brute force through most of the mechanics in the first three floors, recover from deaths, even with healer LB3 in some cases, and still beat enrage. Being able to recover and survive, even without beating enrage, is still valuable for progression since you can learn mechanics faster than if you can't recover.

If we're talking about things like midas savage then yeah, having verraise won't help as much since you'd either fail mechanics that will wipe the entire group, or fail a dps check. I'm not going to repeat what I've said in the past few pages but I linked a reddit discussion about the ability to recover from multiple deaths in this raid tier, thanks to the weakness debuff changes and rdm verraise.

[Dualgunner]

If we're talking about things like midas savage then yeah, having verraise won't help as much since you'd either fail mechanics that will wipe the entire group, or fail a dps check. I'm not going to repeat what I've said in the past few pages but I linked a reddit discussion about the ability to recover from multiple deaths in this raid tier, thanks to the weakness debuff changes and rdm verraise.

I guess that's my big issue, since Midas was the last tier I seriously raided in prior to this tier, and it's hard to see anything without that lens of mechanic failure = total party wipe. I also concede on my earlier point about DRG as well, as that came from the old DRG/NIN/MCH/BRD comps of 3.x.

Personally speaking I have no issues removing verraise from dualcast, but beyond that I see no other nerfs needed for RDM's support skills.

[Ceallach]

Personally speaking I have no issues removing verraise from dualcast, but beyond that I see no other nerfs needed for RDM's support skills.

Personally, I wouldn't even do that. Just make summoner great again and red mage's Verraise and Dualcast won't be an issue.

[Dualgunner]

Personally, I wouldn't even do that. Just make summoner great again and red mage's Verraise and Dualcast won't be an issue.

I think an issue is nobody can agree on what makes summoner great.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

Eh I think I'm done with this thread, like it or not, they're probably not going to touch it. BLMs will just have to git gud and SMN is probably going to keep being a disaster till 4.1. And again, you can't just say everyone brute forces through mechanics aleph unless you are most groups. If we want to go lorewise, the only utility summoner ever had non dps wise was Ruby Light, and mass defensive buffs usually shell/protect and physical absorption from golem, and various miscellaneous buffs that for one reason or the other doesn't exist in 14, like haste or vanish.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

And stop referencing the angered reddit post. It's not relevant to 99% of raiding groups regardless of trickle down opinions which are usually held by the type of people who just want to be carried.

[Maeka]

So explain to me how SMN was the "de facto" choice because of their raise by your statements and yet RDM raise is not a problem and in no way makes them the de facto choice, even though they push out more raises in a period of time then a WHM, AST, SCH and SMN. My issue isn't that RDM pushed SMN out of raiding, it is that utility shouldn't be on a dps, it should be on a healer.

So, I guess bards shouldn't have utility either then, right? Or are you saying that Bards need to become healers now?

Each DPS has a niche. SAM puts out massive single-target damage when used right. RDM does some decent damage and has a lot of Utility. Bard brings the AoE buffs. They are all balanced in their own way.

Just because you're a DPS doesn't mean you shouldn't have support abilities. There is no actual "support class" (those almost never work in MMOs anyways), so the role of "Support" falls upon anybody who has such abilities.

Next you're going to be calling for Clemency nerfs because "Tanks shouldn't be healers".